As much as I don’t care about the original visual novel, I have to admit that this episode stretched even my suspense of disbelief. Battler just acted way too weird in this episode, it just doesn’t make any sense.
So basically, the bodies continue to fall when Natsuhi commits suicide. Butterflies then appear again, Battler tries to shoot them, the eye-catch appears… and suddenly Kanon, Sharon and Natsuhi are perfectly fine and everyone acts like nothing happens! Sure, I can see how Beatrice is screwing with everyone’s mind by magically reviving everyone and all… but what happened to the others? There isn’t even a single mention of them! And besides, everyone was talking like they just returned from a Beach resort, instead of a murderous mansion.
Then Battler’s refusal to believe in the existence of witches. Sure, I believed that too until the end of the previous episode. HOWEVER he completely seemed to accept that everyone and his dog came back to life, and yet he never even questions it, and yet he doesn’t want to believe that Beatrice killed them. That just doesn’t make any sense.
Overall, I’m a bit disappointed that it really was Beatrice who killed off everyone, but let’s see what the rest of the series can do to spice things up. This show now seems to be developing into a battle of wits between Beatrice and Battler, but I wonder how the creators are going to make this interesting without making Beatrice Mary-Sueing Battler over and over.
I’m intrigued by that letter in a bottle from Maria, though. What was up with that, and could that one explain what happened to the real Maria? So that Maria was basically killed and replaced by some thing that could keep an eye around for Beatrice?
Oh boy, this really reminds me back to the first season of Higurashi. I remember how my love for that series was also as inconsistent as he series itself.
Rating: – (Disappointing)
I’m quite surprised that you found this episode disappointing, I highly expected an ‘Awesome’ here…but well I think it depends.
Without spoiling too much and just spicing up the interest a bit: Are you sure that Beatrice killed everyone?! What did you see and what did you not see? What was possible and what was not?
Just like Battler doubted, is it right to say ‘It was a witch’ immedeatly after you run out of options?
Yeah, I was expecting that too, but this time I guess my suspense of disbelief couldn’t keep up. I agree with Battler, actually: Jessica and the others were too quick to give up… but I’d be so too if people randomly resurrected from out of nowhere.
But now I get what you mean, yeah. There is no guarantee that Beatrice committed all of the murders. I guess what got me in this episode was the questionable way the characters behaved, rather than anything else.
Haha, you and me are like opposites, psgels.
I wasn’t taking the series serious and that’s why I liked this episode, it finally managed to surprise me!
Look at the “cliffhanger” endings of the past 3 episodes, what happened in them: people were left alone… and then they died! Wow, who would have thought. You can pull it off once, but 3 times? Meh.
I didn’t like it when it was trying to take itself all serious yet give the most ridiculous and farfetched explanations with over-the-top reactions and blah blah. You say Battler was acting weird in this episode… but don’t you think *everyone* has been acting weird in *all* of the episodes? No one is acting rational, it’s all stretching beyond suspense of belief. It completely failed to impress me as serious mystery drama, so I was hoping for something out of the ordinary, and I got it now.
First episode I really enjoyed since the first one (second ep was okay).
This show really does cater to those who are familiar with the game. While I have not played the game (and I don’t plan too anytime soon), I did read up on how the game worked, so some things weren’t confusing.
With said, I did like this episode and am now even more excited about the rest of the show, so perhaps reading a bit on the game may make this show more enjoyable.
ah crap, I meant to say, “With that said”
Yeah I think (despite not having read/seen source material) the main problem with episode 2 and 3 is that they rushed through them. That and characters acting weird and doing weird things.
The anime kept killing off characters I didn’t care about yet and then using their murders for… absolutely nothing. I didn’t feel much suspense.
For this anime I much prefer a more… abstract storyline, what they seem to have going on in this new arc, that you don’t know what’s real and what’s not.
After watching the first episodes… I began reading the game. When this episode aired, I had not yet read that part in the game. All I can say is… I still found today’s episode amazing, however it makes a slight bit more sense in the game. Not all that much though, since I assume, we don’t know anything yet!
My guess is we shouldn’t believe so much that the witch is the culprit, and that shouldn’t be a spoiler because I know nothing so far… Just a slightly more detailed rendition of what you know. (VN episode 1 vs. the anime adaption so far, I mean, so it’s the same material.)
I just began reading the second episode of the game… and I hope you will enjoy episode 6! I now know I will.
@psgels: Are you sure there were people who were ressurected? What makes you believe that anybody apart from Shanon and Kanon were dead at the time this scene was taking place?
And what makes you believe that Beatrice commited any of the murders at all?
Because you saw it? Remember what you saw, what you did not see.
Okay, this is more than a bit based on the fun that comes with knowing what is going to follow, but take one thing to heart ‘This is a game of wits, if you accept the witch, you already lost!’
I’m not even sure anyone is alive at all in the tea party scene. I’m having an image of them taking a rest in limbo before they revive and the killing starts again.
Happy Mind-Raped!!!
If you feel the story is confusing then it’s good, because it supposes to be like that.This is only the beginning so there will a lot of questions left unanswered.
This is where everything really starts.
Welcome to Rokkenjima.
As a visual novel reader I found this epeisode totally awesome.
They kept in everything important, even Bernkastel!^^
Sure they’re acting weird to you, because they are supposed to.
It’s really confusing at this point, even in the VN, because the reader/watcher is suddenly thrown into cold water without knowing what happened.
Higurashi was the same with Onikakushi where suddenly everyone was back to normal after all the ‘possessed by Oyashiro-sama’ and ‘bloody murder’ stuff everyone acted like nothing was wrong, which was totally confusing for everyone.
Battler’s role now is to prove that all these murders were done by humans which is going to be really hard when he’s surrounded by ‘magic’ and Beatrice trying to screw with his mind.
Even those who have read all the VN don’t know yet what is real and what’s not, because we’re still in the ‘Question Arcs’.
I think that the sequence after the eye catch was a clever way to avoid the mistake (imo) made in higurashi 1st season where the reboots just hapened without further explanation; it also served as a nice setup for what I think is going to happen next: battler is gonna try to explain the murders as caused by a human while beatrice will probably up the ante and kill in even more atrange and inexplicable ways to prove him that the culprit cannot be a human – after all, this episode implied that for beatrice to be fully revived everyone needs to believe that she exists… Of course, I say all this without knowing anything about the game or its plot , so I may be completely off chart. Btw loving this series, way better than higurashi…
Wow, somebody gave into the witch easily
Just because Beatrice is a character in the series, doesn’t mean she exists or is the culprit, buddy.
Is Battler’s reaction to this unbelievable situation out of character? It’s not if he doesn’t accept what’s going on. Disbelieving the evidence of your own eyes seems reasonable. If it’s not real, it’s easy to stay calm.
Maria and Battler are somewhat in character. I’m not sure about everyone else. Why do they just accept it?
I was disappointed in the same way with this scene in the visual novel.
Don´t give up so fast.The biggest Problem with this episode is that the Jump from the story to the Tea Party is so aprupt.
To clarify, the visual Novel ends with the clock striking 24:00 with the “credits” rolling and the mentioning of Marias Letter (which is said to be the story from Marias PoV).
Then you are notified that you are invited by the Golden Witch and the Main menu contains now a Option called “Tea Party” which is basically where everyone discusses the game like actors discussing a movie their just shot.
After reading that the main menu gains “???” which is the part with Bernkastell.
Its slightly less confusing because it´s clearer that the Tea Party isn´t part of the “real” story but more in the real of “TIPS”.
You could think of the “Tea Party” as a inseries Forumdiscussion of the Story. The next episode should make the premise of the series clearer.
Damn, there wasn’t any comments when I read this post earlier but I had to go to work. Hope you still read this.
“As much as I don’t care about the original visual novel”
I’m not sure what to make of this statement. You completely don’t care about the source material from which this adaption is being adapted (in a glossed-over manner)? As someone that watches as much anime as you do, how can it make sense to totally shun an entire medium of story-telling? Especially seeing as you suggest you enjoy excellent characters and interaction, a speciality of Visual Novels?
Personal opinion on the episode: average. Better than episode 1, 2 (which I was disappointed in), not as good as 3 and better than 4 (back to disappointment). The presentation of the meta-world was nothing special (and clearly confusing to anyone new to Umineko) but it wasn’t horrible. I absolutely loathe the character designs and the addition of Beatrice’s horrible design and voice acting just irritated me further.
And I have to say that a lot of things you found confusing and nonsensical is, again, a fault of the adaption. The second half of the episode takes place in a meta-world which exists for the sole purpose of convincing Battler that magic exists. This meta-world and the characters inside it oversee each loop as it is played out (like a game of chess). George, Jessica, etc. are presumably just ‘magic-exists’/given up versions Beatrice created in attempt to get Battler to surrender.
If you have no intention of ever reading it then you should probably give up attempting to make sense of the anime.
As others have said, I think you got the wrong impression of the second half of the episode. No one was resurrected. The second half took place in purgatory (which was stated in the visual novel) and not the real world, which was why Beatrice could be standing right and front of him, and yet Battler still could deny her existence in the world of Rokkenjima.
^ I disagree with Kanao, the adaption is not at fault, and the VN readers were almost just as confused by this turn of events as many anime-viewers are
In addition, Kanao’s comment contains spoilers for future episodes that serve the purpose of making a bit of sense of what happened this episode
I think this anime is presenting things very well, and giving almost the same feeling as the VN did.
You can indeed make sense of the anime, but you have to give it time to develop. This next arc will set the tone of the series from this point on, so get ready for a fun ride.
So it seems that I’ve fallen like a duck to the red herring, based on the comments… Still, now that I know the nature of the tea party in the visual novel, I cant help but love even more this anime for including it – as I said before, it works as a good setup for the reboot (even if my theories about the next “game” were completly wrong).
As for the visual novel, i don’t think that a lot of people have played it (is there any english version?), and i personally would never play it while the anime is being broadcasted – I really wanna see what’s gonna happen next and not be spoiled.
“You completely don’t care about the source material from which this anime* is being adapted (in a glossed-over manner)?”
-mistyped.
Also, I forgot to mention that everything that happens in the second half of the episode is unrelated to anything that actually happened in the first loop (aka Episode 1). It is actually an (plot essential) ‘extra’ that you unlock after you finish reading the Episode. The bit with the Rika lookalike is also an extra. The director is an idiot for not showing it as being separate in any way as it really screws up the story telling.
In the visual novel Episode 1 ends when the final four (Battler, George, Jessica and Maria) burst through the door and find Natsuhi’s dead body. Then Maria says congratulations to Beatrice and tells them to look at the clock hitting midnight. There’s no stupid attempts at shooting golden butterflies because Battler never sees magic with his own eyes. There’s a kind of credits roll listing all the deaths (including the final characters being assumed dead) and it gives you some text from Maria’s letter.
There is no reason at all to believe that Beatrice killed everyone in Episode 1.
“As for the visual novel, i don’t think that a lot of people have played it (is there any english version?)”
Actually, a lot of people have. It’s fully translated in English. http://www.witch-hunt.com. Also the highest-scoring Visual Novel on vndb.org at the moment. http://vndb.org/v24
“I cant help but love even more this anime for including it”
It’s impossible to tell the story without including it so it’s not worth praising.
“In addition, Kanao’s comment contains spoilers for future episodes that serve the purpose of making a bit of sense of what happened this episode”
No it doesn’t. I haven’t said anything that isn’t obvious simply from reading Episode 1 – the part that’s been adapted.
At this point, I think we VN readers should just shut up and let the guy enjoy his anime
He already said he doesn’t care for the VN, and he’s just going to take in the anime for what it is (which, in my opinion, is a faithful adaption so far), so a lot of these comments are pretty pointless.
“At this point, I think we VN readers should just shut up and let the guy enjoy his anime
He already said he doesn’t care for the VN, and he’s just going to take in the anime for what it is (which, in my opinion, is a faithful adaption so far), so a lot of these comments are pretty pointless.”
Disappointment isn’t the same as enjoyment. All I’ve done is point out something – that totally messed up his perception of the story – is actually misinterpreted due to poor directing. Did you read his post? He’s got the idea that the second half is actually straight after the first half. When I watched it, it was fine because I knew it was separate. But looking at it from another perspective, it’s confusing as hell.
Many visual novel readers that have absolutely no problem with the adaption are simply filling in all the blanks subconsciously. If you’ve been reading anime-only viewer’s impressions, a lot of things that were explained have been ignored in the adaption. I’m not saying it’s a ‘bad adaption’ as they have a hell of a lot of content to get through, but ‘at least they’ve got all of the important bits’ doesn’t mean a lot isn’t being left out.
Yeah, I have the same opinion , this episode was a bit disappointing, also because in the middle we have the already dead characters that come back from the dead as if nothing happened, then casually talk about their death, if in Higurashi , it was tackled in a more subtle way ( most of the characters lost the memories of their previous life and the effect produced was quite awesome and enigmatic), here we have the impression the characters are just fooling around and playing some weird half detective half poltergeist game and just acting ,it just goes nowhere, no , it gives us the answer : “Beatrice actually does exist since we saw her talking casually with the characters then with the other witch (why?)who looks like the witch we’ve seen at the end of the 2nd season of Higurashi, it is her, isn’t it? And Battler went quite hysterical and showed some comical act, ranting that witches don’t exist and even if I can see one, they’re just tricks made and orchestrated by humans. I was so fond of this series so far, but they’d better review the storyline because here we trip overboard. I hope this episode has some good purpose for having the characters goofing around like this.
They took out all my favorite parts of the “tea party” scenes, so it was a bit disappointing for me too.
It’s because it isn’t “explained” until the 2nd Arc…
I do agree that there wasn’t really much of a distinction is separating the actual episode from the tea party, but honestly… it’s not that big of a deal…
The tea party is supposed to be confusing, and then, based on what you see later, you develop an understanding of what you saw.
You’re blaming peoples confusion on a bad adaption, but honestly, the story itself is confusing at that point, I don’t see it being the adaption at all.
(My last comment was in response to Kanao)
Overboard? This is just a child play! Compare to what to come next, this mind-raping is not even 1/10th of what to come.
Correcting myself:
You’re blaming peoples confusion on bad directing, Kanao, but the story itself is confusing at that point, so I don’t think it’s entirely to blame on how the director handled it
“You’re blaming peoples confusion on a bad adaption, but honestly, the story itself is confusing at that point, I don’t see it being the adaption at all.”
Since it says things like ‘Episode I-V’ anyway it should have said ‘Episode I-V END’ while doing the screen for the mid-episode break. Then opened the second half with ‘Episode I Tea Party’ or something. I just reread the actual Tea Party in the game and it was awesome. Do so yourself and tell me there’s no difference.
Also, in the actual Tea Party it may have been slightly confusing but there are hints right there as to what’s going on. The fact that it’s actually a separate extra makes all the difference to the belief that it’s somehow ongoing and a couple characters came back to life.
The game made it clear in the Episode 1 end-credits that all the characters were dead. In the anime you really don’t feel like the last four characters died at all. You select an ‘extra’ story called a Tea Party and the characters are happily discussing what happened in the Episode.
The problem is in the way it’s put across. On one hand (anime) it feels like a direct continuation and is beyond confusing. On the other (VN) it feels like a side-story.
“Since it says things like ‘Episode I-V’ anyway it should have said ‘Episode I-V END’ while doing the screen for the mid-episode break. Then opened the second half with ‘Episode I Tea Party’ or something”
Thinking about it, it may even have made a lot more sense if, instead of showing someone finding a letter in a bottle, they copied the VN and had some scrolling text explaining the end of the Episode before opening to the Tea Party.
It would surely seem clearer if they handled it like that, but I’m saying that anime viewers will come to somewhat “understand” it later, when the series’ setup begins to become more clear, so it’s not TOO big of a deal…
(And, I did read the end of Episode I and the Tea Parties shortly before the episode aired)
Anyway, I don’t think there’s much use in continuing this discussion any further…
Yes, it was very confusing for me, I haven’t gone through the visual novel and can’t compare but in “Higurashi”, we had a certain continuation with some parts changing here and there, maybe this would also follow its footsteps later on, I hope so because in the first one we had it clear that the characters were doomed to die then revive all the time due to the wheel of fate, and what was more realistic in a certain way is that they didn’t remember anything but here seeing the characters being aware of their previous deaths just doesn’t fit right in, that’s what I feel and then seeing the witch calling herself Beatrice appearing out of nowhere just for teasing the main character seems also out of place and makes the fabulous mystery that we were right into lose its effect.
If there’s going to be a supernatural deus ex machina in a mystery series, it’s much better to bring it out in the beginning rather than wait until the last episode. I can think of a few anime that would have been better doing this.
It doesn’t look good in any medium. Arguably, the anime version is more honest as it doesn’t try to hide that it makes no sense.
Just be glad that we don’t have to wait months for the next episode at this point with the anime.
I thought it was slightly confusing at first, but even as someone who had only watched the anime so far, it seemed implicit that we aren’t supposed to take everything at face value precisely because Beatrice is trying to force Battler to do so.
At this point the show seems to be taking off into a more meta direction, which isn’t necessarily bad, but it definitely changes the rules and for that reason I wouldn’t attempt to make sense out of everything right now.
Even the leaps of logic the characters make might be a little too sudden for the viewer, so it’s best to wait and see how things develop.
Other than that, the episode was interesting and entertaining enough. I’d really like to see what can they come up with next.
YOU THINK THAT BEATRICE WAS THE CULPRIT? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Everyone lost at the beggining of the history, ONLY because beatrice shows up and say se made everything you think she is the culprit? did you really see higurashi? the culprit were aliens and oyashirosama like rena thought in her arc?????
YOU HAVE TO KNOW THAT
Those who enjoy stupid puzzles that are made to be solved can leave now.
Umineko no Naku Koro ni is the worst kind of tale, created without any intention of letting all of you solve it.
I really cant’ beleive how wrong the review of this episode was, i didn’t read the visual novel but i saw higurashi and IT’S OBVIOUS that all that we see IS NOT THE REAL THING and i also think that the culprit is human, I REALLY EJOY THIS EPISODE IS WAS AMAZING AND AN ICNREDIBLE MINDRAPE, i think that the tea part was all a show to made battler surrender but i don’t know why.
btw BERKANSTEL IS RIKA???????????
Umineko: Episode 1 – Witch’s Tea Party: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg9WDP2UkHw&feature=channel_page
This is the original scene (from the VN) where Beatrice and Bernkastel converse. The final couple of minutes of the anime episode. The quality isn’t great and the text appears smoothly in the actual game but it’s good. A better example would be the actual Tea Party extra but I can’t find it on youtube. Anyone want to record it? Or recommendations on how I could record it myself in good quality?
It’ll make more sense once they get farther into the second arc, trust me. (although the entire thing is still a bit contradictory by nature)
Next episode won’t help you much at all, I’m afraid, but it will be very fun. LOL.
I also believe that someone is behind all this, that’s obvious enough but even so that doesn’t exclude the existence of the witch Beatrice herself because Hanyu was the reincarnation of Oyashiro sama, if I’m not wrong? So, we clearly saw here two witches talking together about the “big plot” or events that will take place, didn’t we? Now someone else is undoubtfully pulling the strings behind the curtains, the question is who is it?! That’s what will be unravelled further on but this episode sounded like a play where the actors themselves overplay their characters, now the four previous episodes were pure awesomeness and this one wasn’t bad ,just under the level, it remains one of the best shows of the season anyway.
My own view on the series (which is neither canon nor valid) that can help on enjoying the anime is the following: The ‘souls’ of the dead are gathering in the purgatorio (“metaworld”, as known in the VN) and discussing about their own deaths. All the people thinks that the witch killed everyone (ey, maybe they will be revived if they think like that) but battler is stubborn and does not really think that a witch killed them all. So the witch shows herself and, from this point on, will try to “convince” the soul of battler (“meta-battler” in the VN) that she exists – so she can become a real being in the real world.
Welcome to Rokkenjima, and enjoy the battle with the witch! did she really existed in the real world and killed everyone. Is she lying so she can exist? Is up to meta-battler (and you) to decide!
I don’t know why people are surprised psgels thought Beatrice was behind the murders.. this is the same person who thought Alto died at the end of Episode 24 of Macross Frontier.. he’s ah gullible lol.
That said Beatrice exists Uuuuuuuuuu!
I think all that this bickering leads to is for psgels to drop the anime at one point or the other.
It’s one thing to point out little details within the already aired episodes, but always saying ‘But in the VN! But in the VN!’ is not going to help, neither is calling him gullible or stupid bringing him any closer to enjoying it. So let’s just refrain from using the comments as ANOTHER battleground for anime vs. visual novel wars…in the end I think this is one of the few readable blogs about Umineko (being neither unreflected praise or just plain hate).
@chounuokoe: Agreed big time. While I haven’t watched this episode, and have no knowledge of the Visual Novel, I certainly don’t think it would help in appreciation to simply boil it down to ‘But in the VN! But in the VN!’. And in this case with the comments its just boiled down to just that, with disbelief being suspended in favor of knowledge beforehand.
i didn’t play the visual novel but i also think psgels made a horrible review XD i just can’t beleive how simple is his logic BEATRICE KILL EVERYONE SHE EXISTS I SEE HER AGAIN IN THE PREVIEW FOR THE NEXT EPISODE WTF like i said before, the culprit were aliens and oyashirosama like rena thought in her arc????? NO in complex animes like this we have to use our brains that’s what i love from umineko and what i love from episode 5 WE HAVE TO THINK in my opinion beatrice didn’t kill everyone but well i have to wait what happen next.
PD: psgels didn’t even mention the appearence of bernkanstel =P
Who is Bernkanstel anyway?
@windy: Just wait and see, there is still so much more to come.
At this point she is just an enigmatic witch, who enjoys teasing Beatrice.
@windy: to know that you need to see AT LEAST the ova 4 from higurashi rei.
Just watched the episode… Odd that people say that you fail if you believe in witches but then you get that totally odd scene that comes up from no where that in a sense proves their existence, or it could just be bad writing. Namely the second tea party that obviously is outside the domain of any of the sight of the survivors. Course you could just discount the entire 2nd half as a dream but that scene still stands as an anomaly to any logic. Simply put that scene just shouldn’t be there.
It is obvious that witches do exist. Now if the murders on Rokkenjima were done by a witch, that’s a completely different story. And I think I understand Battler’s refusal in believing that his whole family was butchered by something as ridiculous as a witch.
clap clap superseaslug i was waiting for someone intelligent here.
Bernkanstel was a witch that traveled through different worlds and has been living for a thousand years, isn’t it ? I didn’t realize at first glance that “Umineko no naku koro ni” would be so linked to “Higurashi” in every single way, there’s a kinda ” Tsubasa- xxx holic” link between them.
“neither is calling him gullible or stupid bringing him any closer to enjoying it. ”
He is gullible, just look at his comments for any romance anime he has followed. One ep Girl A has won for sure and than the next ep no it’s Girl B! Also he seems to fall for character deaths so often it’s not funny.
I don’t get this show at all… I mean, WTF is going on?
I really hate Maria – it’s so unlike me to hate a kid, but she is so obnoxious that it’s almost unbearable. And like you said in an earlier post, she’s so blatantly nuts and evil and NO ONE SEES IT.
I dunno I’m thinking of dropping this show, I don’t like it anymore.
This is what happens when you grow up watching under the influence of Disney and Looney Tunes; the dumbing down of your thought process with simple, linear storylines.
Anyone with a brain would figure out that if the writer was Ryukishi07, the same person who concocted the masterpiece called Higurashi, would have plot twists. Have you learned nothing from his writing style? If it’s the introduction to the series (Higurashi: Onikakushi-hen, Umineko: Episode I-I~V) you need to take what’s been given to you with a grain of salt! Just because K1 saw Mion and Rena trying to inject him with a syringe doesn’t mean it really happened. Just because you saw Beatrice appear doesn’t mean witches exists.
I just found a great article on this episode, which I think will clear some things up for anime viewers:
(WARNING: DO NOT READ THIS UNLESS YOU WATCHED HIGURASHI AT LEAST UNTIL REI EPISODE 4)
http://animehistory.wordpress.com/2009/08/03/umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-episode-1-5-analysis-thoughts-and-random-comments/
This was NOT written by me.
to vic: In Higurashi, ” Oyashiro sama or aliens like you say” didn’t appear and announce they killed everyone either, if you compare the two , you have to take that into account.