So, this episode was there in order to analyze the mystery presented at the previous episode from many different angles, both from the perspective of the three amateur detectives, and from the main characters themselves. The three theories from the amateur detectives were pretty quickly shot down, but this was definitely an interesting episode, as they all had their own theories, and used their own perspective.
Now, knowing this series, there probably is a very important grain of truth in all of their stories, yet the truth is much more nuanced. There was one point when the characters discussed a murderer using the window to escape, and then mentioned leaving traces in the grass. Now, I’m not sure whether they have a special kind of grass in Japan, but the grass I know doesn’t really get destroyed when someone just walks on it.
And inbetween the theories, the creators also found some interesting ways to flesh out the characters, like Satoshi admitting that he’s a big fan of Sherlock Holmes, and Chitanda not being a fan of mystery at all despite starting the classics club. And yeah, Chitanda getting drunk on whisky bonbons. I like the use of alcohol, since it often shows characters showing new sides of themselves, and it’s often strangely ignored in anime. The animators also did a great job of showing Chitanda fiddling with these bonbons and their wrappers.
Rating: ** (Excellent)
Japan doesn’t really have grass… it’s more likely underbrush or weeds.
If you walk on grass, the stalks bend and in some cases, break, especially if the person is jumping down from a window. its not as noticeable with short grass, but they did mention that there was long grass at the location, which would make it very noticeable if someone stepped through it.
on the episode itself, chitanda was really a treat to watch. lots of subtle movements and they didn’t overdo her intoxicated state.
Agreed. There will be signs like bent or broken leaves or breaks where someone stepped and crushed something. Also, the way the camera was positioned to show the undisturbed(?) grass and the blocked corridor together was to help establish the room as a sealed room. I would have liked a pan to the ceiling though. ^^
Besides a few implications on the characters, this episode was really boring. Chitanda saved the episode getting drunk.
It felt like a build-up episode. A lot was revealed about the nature of the project. Someone earlier compared this arc to Hyouka. I think I’m starting to see the parallels. Like Chitanda’s uncle, it looks like the scriptwriter was forced into taking up the job by a class vote, even though this wasn’t her genre and she wasn’t in the best of health. She was also restricted/pressured by the various opinions the whole class had. They even seemed to vote on details on how the story would go. The three students shown here seemed really fired up about how they wanted the story to go but individually didn’t have the skills it took to make the story great on their own. I think the scriptwriter was under enormous pressure to make a great story that could satisfy the individual expectations of everyone in the class and that may have contributed to her collapse. I get the feeling Irisu might be going all out to make the project a success out of guilt for not being there to protect the scriptwriter from the class’s actions.
There was something weird about the first guy’s defensiveness whenever he was asked about the scriptwriter and her decisions. I get the impression that he disagreed with her way of storytelling but respected (or was forced to respect) her personally (maybe because of her illness). He seemed to be forcefully blending in his own opinion into the scriptwriter’s orders, as if they were her idea, even though there’s evidence that they weren’t. I’m not sure if he’s even aware of what he’s doing. He looks like a stubborn bull chasing a red flag. He was the film project’s director too. Hm…
I’m not making much sense out of the second guy’s argument dismissing use of the master key. He was talking about how no one could have gotten to the office and taken the master key unnoticed. I don’t understand why not. Everyone had split up and had their own areas to explore deeper in the building. No one would be paying attention to the lobby. And as for the single corridor leading to the scene of the crime, again, if the culprit was one of the students, he or she wouldn’t have raised any alarms approaching the victim and could have killed him quietly with a surprise attack once he was off his guard. Maybe this second guy wasn’t aware that the group had split up? It looks like he drew all his conclusions from the props and the floor plan and hadn’t actually seen the movie footage or the script.
I don’t like the part about the improvised murder scene too. How much of it wasn’t planned and would conflict with the script? Maybe the severed hand. It would be hard to explain what could do that, especially without making an obvious mess on the culprit. And is it me or did the scriptwriter only call for a small bottle of fake blood but because of the improvision, it became a huge bottle?
I think Oreki has caught on to all three of the students seeming to single him out for an opinion. I wonder if he’s figured out his sister’s hand in all of this. XD
I felt weight in Chitanda’s last words before she passed out. “Kaleidoscope”. I don’t know why but I feel like the end result of their work will turn out into something like this. A kaleidoscope incorporating what the Classic Club team found appealing from the three students’ theories/hopes for the movie along with the intentions of the scriptwriter. I have a bad feeling about Hongou’s situation. I wonder if she’s dying or something. Irisu seems to be really pulling out all the stops to make this movie work.
I just noticed a change in the ending subtitle. “Why didn’t she ask EBA?” Kininarimasu.
I see what they did there…. (Good book, too.)
Gimme a hint. XD I’m no Sherlockian, to my regret. I bet there’s an interesting theory to be drawn from that list of Sherlock books that Hongou had tucked inside the books.
Chitanda not being a fan of mystery at all despite starting the classics club.
Actually I’m kind of curious. What exactly is a “Classics” club in Japan? It sounds like a book or literature club specializing in japanese classics where the members study novels and authors of any genre (not necessarily mysteries).
This club’s activities don’t seem to have much to do with that though. Their mystery solving seems to all be them getting sidetracked to clear up minor mysteries they encounter. Their first major activity seemed to be Chitanda using Houtarou to clear up a personal mystery that is inadvertently involved with the history of the Classic Club itself. It’s possible Chitanda joined the club just to find clues from old Hyouka issues to figure out what happened to her uncle.
Also, while Chitanda may become easily induced into obsessing about things she encounters that she doesn’t understand, I don’t think she actively seeks them out. I think she’s just not self-aware about how much she loves mysteries. I reckon she’d get hooked on mystery novels quickly if she started reading them. (Possibly winding up nagging Houtarou repeatedly about how the mystery will turn out. XD)
This particular iteration of the “classic club” was essentially founded on ulterior motives of Chitanda wanting to understand her uncle and Hotarou following his sister’s orders. The literal translation I believe is “Old text club” which as koten is written in Kanji also translates to classic as well. The scope of the club does not limit to the study of “literary classics” rather it’s more broad and ambiguous, which is why Hyouka #2 and the events that transpired during Chitanda’s uncle’s time was deem appropriate topic for the Hyouka they are about to make, since the old school publications falls under “old text”. According to what they read from past edition of Hyouka, it seems that the club doesnt really have a true focus to any type of literary classic, rather it encompasses a broad range of topics, a sign the the past members also took the interpretation name ambiguously
As far as activities goes, Houtarou himself is not sure what activities they should really carry, making Hyouka seems to be the only priority. Houtarou is also not the type to find more work to do if he doesnt have to, therefore he never really bother to find out. Also sometimes, clubs are in name only, dependent on how strict the school is with the definition of a club and its activities(which is apparently very loose in this school). Especially a non-sports club that also has no formal competitions in their respective fields or specific function to the school, it ends up being a place where students just hang out(see K-on)
Thanks. Just to add to this, I think literature clubs like this still have stuff like book reports they can publish though, perhaps as part of an annual school magazine or something. And all official clubs would probably have a teacher assigned as their advisor. I’m guessing Mrs Itoigawa, the librarian will probably fill that role.
Meow, you are over thinking it. I am going to bet on the simple explanation as they did point out the writer was a amateur at writing mystery..
The floor was pointed out to be covered in broken glass. The guy slipped and cut himself. So nobody killed him. It was an accident. This does fit in well with the mentioning how the blood was exaggerated. The only problem is the rope. Of course that fits in if somebody used it to trip him.
I also think the girl who brings in the three people is the writer herself. Because that would solve the biggest mystery of all. The question of why they just can’t ask the writer how it ends! Seriously, unless that girl is in a coma there’s no excuse. The classics club was asked for specifically so it’s probably a test of some kind. Maybe to check to see if the mystery is solvable.
Hyouku, compared to Umineko this is easy. Personally I prefer mystery that takes into account the motive.
The guy slipped and cut himself.
Hm…i don’t get it. There didn’t seem to be anything in the room that looked like it could bleed him out. It’s not like he was impaled on something. If he’d just lost his arm, I think he could have yelled for help or made it someways back to the lobby. And who locked the door? Surely he didn’t lock himself in to explore the room? The rope doesn’t look like it came into play either.
There’s also another potential piece to the mystery. According to the minutes, there was a majority vote for two culprits, although the writer was given the final say as to whether to proceed with it. I think the writer would have wanted to accommodate her class as much as possible so she could have started writing with the understanding of using a team of two culprits. If a rope was in play for this murder but the window wasn’t used, I was thinking of a concealable hole in the ceiling.
The question of why they just can’t ask the writer how it ends!
I’m guessing it’s cos she can’t figure it out herself. Especially if your theory that the guide is the writer herself is correct. As you said, she’s out of her depth, so to speak, but is under great pressure from her classmates to complete the movie project. I’m reminded of an old episode of House where he treats a brain-damaged patient who is a musical savant. House plays the patient a piano piece he’s been stuck on for years and the patient comes up with a beautiful completion to the melody on the fly. I’m not saying what Houtarou may eventually come up with could win an Academy Award but it would at least be enough to impress the original writer and her classmates.
Personally I prefer mystery that takes into account the motive.
It looks like you’re looking at this like an actual incident that has already happened, with fixed facts and evidence. I think this is instead an incomplete work of fiction that must somehow be finished, possibly even partially or completely revamped, by another party. After coming up with a plausible scenario of how the murder could be done, the motive and other details can be filled in later, eg. by a last minute speech by the culprit(s).
I also suspect another major obstacle to completing the movie is getting the class to cooperate. I have a feeling that these three kids that have major roles in the production are screwing things up because each has their own ideas on how the story should go. All this frustrated the script writer so much that she just threw in the towel. (Fits very well if that dispassionate “I don’t care anymore” guide really is the writer. XD) She could have actually completed a script (or several), but it couldn’t satisfy these three in particular. The puzzle the Classics club may have to solve is how to write the story in such a way that all parties are satisfied and can cooperate to complete the movie properly.
I just said what could bleed him out. Broken glass. It was on the floor. They put special emphasise on the fact that there were shards of glass everywhere. Also anyone would pass out from blood loss if they lost an arm. I also said how the rope could be used to trip him. They specified that they needed a rope strong enough to support human weight. So it had to be a rope strong enough to trip someone if they walked into it. Also note that when the guy was running to the body he tripped on something. What did he trip on? It’s also not a stretch to believe the victim locked himself in.
You are over-thinking this far too much.
Haha. You could be right. This is the series I’m enjoying the most this season. Can’t wait for the next episode.
I might have overlooked some parts of your explanation, but how would tripping onto glass cut off your arm and send it halfway across the room?
If the shard was big enough the force of the fall could possibly sever a arm. The only issue is that the shard would need to be upright position. However the force of the fall could break the glass as well and leave it laying on the floor.
Who said the arm flew in the air? His arm cut off, he writhed in pain and ended up in a position further away from his arm.
Your solution doesn’t work for me. If the victim had cut his own arm on a glass shard, he would have screamed in pain. Also there should be much more blood on the scene.
I’m also having difficulty imagining an accidental scenario where his arm comes off that also kills him without raising an alarm. I’m already dismissing the arm and the mass of blood as that idiot director ignoring Hongou’s script or any plot considerations in favor of a dramatic murder scene.
I always lock myself in when I plan on jumping on glass in order to sever my arm and bleed to death…
This honestly doesn’t work for me.
Also, it seems the script writer was “forced” to do this as well. It kind of seems like being “forced” to do things is becoming a theme for Hyouka…?
Starting with the main protagonist. XD I don’t believe it’s all that bad though.
This episode really annoyed me. I mean, last episode, Irisu said that Hongou was informed of Knox’s Ten, SSVD’s Twenty, and Chandler’s Laws. But every theory here seemed to make light of those rules. I know that a lot of times these rules get broken in detective fiction, but it feels like the three just totally made light of those rules. Even the really snobby kid who acts like some sort of expert. Thank god all the theories were shot down.
Irisu talked as if Hongou knows enough about detective fiction, but in this episode, everyone’s emphasizing how she’s still just a newbie. And I have no idea which one is going to weigh more heavily.
But every theory here seemed to make light of those rules.
They’re just not at the level needed to even know these rules exist. They represent the audience, the movie equivalent of the dumb end user. The first guy could only think of the hot-blooded “You’re the culprit!” accusation scene. The second self-styled detective expert, even Manaka could outwit. The third girl couldn’t even tell the difference between a mystery movie and a horror movie. I doubt they’re even aware of the rules and don’t particularly care. I’m not even sure if any of them even read the script. Even the guy who’s supposed to be the director! It’s clearly written in the script about not disturbing the grass yet his theory clearly contradicts it. What happens to a movie where the director doesn’t understand, believe in or follow the script?
Flipping the coin, could the script have been too high-level, complicated, precise, controlling for this class to comprehend and implement? And while the scriptwriter could have been a writing genius, perhaps she lacked the charisma or force of will to get what she had in mind through to her team? Perhaps she was trying too hard following the rules of mystery writing that she forgot to make the movie interesting to her team. They may have voted for a mystery movie without having a consensus on what a mystery movie really was.
Huh? I’m thinking you should be glad that Oreki shot down their theories then…
I guess watching stupidity taking itself seriously isn’t entertaining, especially when the previous episode may have set up the expectations for a serious discussion on the arcane rules of mystery writing. Trolled?
For me, I think Irisu is giving the Classics Club first-hand exposure to the reason why the problem is beyond her and that she desperately needs their help.
I AM GLAD. VERY GLAD.
But having to listen to theories that just felt…completely off the mark from what I think the previous episode set. It was annoying. I mean, the only important things were learned was about the rope, the amount of blood, and a seventh person.
Seventh person? I thought that idea was discarded.
Well, whether or not the ‘theories’ were correct or not, I suppose this demonstrates the type of people Hongou is working with. The endings they all came up with were different and had different meanings. In a way, we were able to take a look into how these people think, which may be the reason the Classics Club is needed.
I suppose that’s a good point.
By a seventh person, I don’t mean the theory with the crazy reaper or w/e. The girl who presented that theory said that Hongou asked for a seventh person, which may be an important clue of some sort. Though the seventh person might just be a policeman or a teacher or something…
Ah! That’s right! I overlooked that. Sawaguchi (the third girl) mentioned that Hongou had asked around for a seventh person. Not clear if she actually found such a person though or what Hongou had in mind for this 7th character though. Come to think of it, I don’t think the full cast list has been looked at yet. I’m not sure whether to take what Sawaguchi said afterwards about using the 7th person as the actual culprit as Hongou’s actual intentions or Sawaguchi’s personal theory.
The amount of blood does not matter. They already cleared that matter up in this episode. The rope, seventh person, and how the culprit got in the room is the key to solving this mystery. First off, they need to find out who this seventh person is if there is a seventh person at all. When they find this out, the mystery will be much more easier to solve.
@Aidan no one said it flew, just that it was displaced pretty far. the fact is that there was no sign of blood in between the arm and the guy. if he flailed around in agony and got that far away from the arm, there would’ve been signs of it.
My only question is where are the teachers? And why isn’t Chitanda getting expelled for bringing alcohol into the schoolzone? Oh right… it’s an anime. I keep forgetting these things don’t matter.
If I were to apply logic…
Chitanda didn’t bring alcohol. She brought Whiskey Bonbons in her bag. So it would be unlikely for them to be identified unless a teacher had a really good sense of smell.
And on the topic of teachers…
I’d say that, since the show primarily takes place after classes, the only teachers around should be the ones associated with clubs. But having been in several clubs myself, the range of ‘supervision’ can vary. I found that very rarely did a teacher take active participation in any of my own club’s activities.
Given this context, it makes sense to me.
Also, saying ‘it’s an anime’ isn’t an excuse. You can’t complain about how an ‘anime’ is too much of an ‘anime’. It’s like calling a mother too ‘motherly’. Now, if you were point out cliches, that’s an entirely different matter.
Also, all this is also happening during the summer vacation btw. I don’t think a whole lot of teachers would be around. Those that are would probably be busy running supplementary classes or something so those working on school fair projects like this class would probably be left on their own.
K-On had their advisors after school, so why shouldn’t Hyouka? And K-On also practiced during summertime, didn’t they?
Godiva chocolate liqueur is considered a chocolate drink. But it’s alcohol. Whiskey is also alcohol, and a strong one at that (40-60%). I don’t care what’s keeping it in. I don’t care if it’s in the form of candy. Alcohol is still alcohol. The reason why I know this is because a friend of mine had brought the same thing for a high school party. She & her chocolate alcohol bonbons got in lots of trouble…
Just because K-On did one thing doesn’t mean that’s how they all do it. They gave plenty of valid reasons why there would not be many teachers so I’m not surprised no one caught her alcoholic candy which, by the way, was hidden in her bag the whole time. It’s not like she flaunted her candy to every person in the building.
It was mentioned back in the beginning that, the classic club was left deserted the previous 2 years and the teacher suppose to be in charge is really in name only. The school is also described to have a very very active club scene with many clubs, that it’s more likely that the teachers are spread thin, not to mention K-on’s case is more abnormal(even so Sawa-chan isnt always there).
besides, just a few episodes ago some guy was smoking in an empty class room. If you dont get caught and no one tells on you, you’re safe. The amount of Whiskey in a candy chocolate like that arent meant get anyone intoxicated, and even if upon discovery, Chitanda struck me as the type that could probably get away with by saying she didnt know, since she only mentioned that it was a gift to her house(an apparently rich and influential house) that she brought to share with her friends.
I like that this anime has provoked a lot of discussion, enthusiasm and theories. It’s clearly one of those anime where the audience finds itself coming up with its own theories. I do expect that once the mystery is revealed, there will be many comments saying that it was obvious and they “knew it all along” >_>
how in the world are people reading so much into this?
if you ask me, this has nothing to do with what hyouka is setting out to accomplish. the show is about the experience of watching the classics club casually ‘solve’ or merely re-understand/muse upon mundane daily interactions and plain-life ‘mysteries’ as to simply develop the characters and show off impressive animation. I think that alone is hyouka’s charm and what makes it viably unique and a relaxing change of pace from most mystery shows.
more importantly however is that there are tons of actual mystery novels/tv series/anime series that are specifically aimed at amateur sleuths who enjoy following along with a mystery and trying to figure things out. like why even then bother speculating on the ‘mysteries’ brought up in this show that are (conversely) specifically directed in a way as to prevent the audience from ever logically deducing a ‘solution’? everything is presented in a totally roundabout and circumstantial way as to never let the audience do anything more than take mere stabs in the dark with the slim chance of it matching whatever they had planned.
I don’t think the creators are looking to impress you with the solution, but rather to have you enjoy the experience. enjoy it however you wanna enjoy it tho I guess.
…?
Are the ‘mysteries’ really that hard to figure out?
Well, for me, the mysteries aren’t so much ‘mysteries’. They’re really more like ordinary questions. And these questions aren’t exactly brain-wracking. Well, I admit the whole ‘Hyouka’ thing went over my head, but I was more or less able to figure out the answer to most of the questions presented. The solutions are pretty upfront and don’t have any tricks involved. Maybe it’s because of this presentation that people might get into this? After all, unlike ‘mystery’ mysteries, I don’t feel like I have to be a genius to come up with solutions.
With this new arc, I get the feeling it’s supposed to be the same… with the whole ‘you should be able to figure it out with just the movie’ thing.
But… I suppose most people here are just curious. It’s pretty infectious.
Yeah. It’s surprising how this episodes got wheels turning in my head.
So many potential clues and plot threads everywhere.
I think maybe that director guy may have had the right idea after all. Just improvise and have fun and see what happens. XD It’s just a school festival movie by students after all. Hongou might just have been taking this too seriously, just like me. XD
The truth is there are more than one way to skin a cat, there are multiple ways to end the movie logically, so the moment you thought that there’s only one solution that fits the mystery atmosphere, you’ve already gone beyond the original script writer’s intents.
Like Hyouka, there is the mystery that is presented in front of them, and then there is the mystery behind everything.
Theory:
The black haired girl did it. How did she enter the room?
1) She had the master key from the very beginning. The key she said is “probably the master key” was just the key to another place. The fact that she suggested the building in the first place and also that she knew exactly where to find the keys is suspicious
2) Using the rope, she descended from upstairs and entered through the NEIGHBORING room which had an open window. Using this method, she can enter the adjacent room without risk of being seen. To ensure that the room is not entered first and her plan ruined, she left the key for this particular room as the “master key” in the office. Once she heard the tall fellow enter the only room his key worked for, she followed him and killed him, locked the door, and then climbed back to the upper floor.
This is especially plausible as she was the one on the upper floor on the same side of the building as the murdered fellow.
Now next week we can see if I was correct. Feel free to shoot down my theory if you see a particular problem with it!
The only issue I haven’t worked out is how she got the guy to go to a particular room. Perhaps somebody has an idea about this as well? Perhaps the map is the key here….
I think that if the keys are labeled there may be some psychological reason she was able to get the victim to go to a specific room. For example, since the room’s labeled “no entry” he may be the type to take what he perceives as the most dangerous task for himself or something.
This is less strong however, so there may be a better explanation…
Your theory about the window is the most likely. However they said this mystery follows the Knox, chandler and twenty rules. And according to the twenty rules
“No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.”
Also where does the broken glass fit into this?