This episode showed three fights right through each other: Emiya versus Kayneth, Kirei versus Irisviel and Maiya, and Caster versus Saber and Lancer. I especially liked the middle one, in which two vastly inferior fighters tried to stop stall time and prevent Kotomine Kirei from reaching Emiya. This guy really is brutal when he wants to, and it’s probably only because he was interested in the two of them that they got away with it.
The blob fight also was pretty interesting. Emiya had a very clear plan on defeating Kayneth, and Kayneth was just way too cocky. His pride is by far his biggest flaw, in that he refuses to acknowledge anything other than accomplished magic. He’s like this character who spent way too much time reading books, instead of getting actual combat experience. He relied too much on his tricks to realize the possibility that people might have developed weapons that are designed to take down mages.
The fight against caster though… I don’t really know what to make of that, and it was rather boring. At first Caster is all like “I have you surrounded now, so I’m just going to sit back and give you time to talk about how to defeat me!” and then saber pulled this shiny thing that allowed lancer to charge past these monsters and cut Caster’s book which somehow made the monsters disappear, only to heal afterwards but the monsters didn’t return… I’m not really sure what the creators wanted to do with that battle. In general battles against small armies are really hard to do in anime… and this unfortunately was not a counter example.
Rating: ** (Excellent)]]>
Fate/Zero – 08
They definitely handled the Saber/Lancer vs Caster battle in a wonky manner. It feels like they had a mediocre action scene which they tried liven up with artificial tension.
Watching the regular folks fight provided some enjoyment though. Lancer’s master acted believably arrogant since they’ve established the guys elitist/egotistical personality since the first episode.
Lancer and Saber derailing Emiya’s killing blow felt totally acceptable. So did Kotomine’s mercy. Unlike Guilty Crown, it feels like Fate/Zero has used the cast’s established personalities and really built upon them to drive the story.
“At first Caster is all like “I have you surrounded now, so I’m just going to sit back and give you time to talk about how to defeat me!” and then saber pulled this shiny thing that allowed lancer to charge past these monsters and cut Caster’s book which somehow made the monsters disappear, only to heal afterwards but the monsters didn’t return…”
Caster’s not in his right mind and he feels like taunting them, plus he didn’t hear their conversation. Also, the monsters were still supposed to be attacking them.
Recall episode 4. Saber used her Invisible Air to accelerate herself towards Lancer before he tricked her into taking a blow from his yellow spear. This is the same attack, except she’s using the air pressure to blow a path through the monsters in front of her instead. It made a slipstream that Lancer jumped into, which accelerated him towards Caster.
Lancer’s Noble Phantasm, Gae Dearg, cut off the prana from from Caster’s book, which then made it impossible for the monsters to maintain their form any longer. Even if he wanted to bring them back, he would have to redo the summoning spell, and there’s no way Saber and Lancer would allow him to do that.
“that allowed lancer to charge past these monsters and cut Caster’s book which somehow made the monsters disappear”
I wonder if the viewers need everything explained to them? I agree that the Lancer/Saber vs Caster was probably the least interesting fight, but really now. We spent all of episode 4 with Lancer, where people complained of too much talking, talking that was used to explain that
red spear=anti magic
yellow spear= wounds that don’t heal
Since lancer cut his magic book with the red spear, i don’t see why people are surprised that it makes his magic summoning disappear.
Kayneth sure is arrogant, but somehow I just can’t see him as a bad guy… he even issued a challenge for a fair match, one mage to another, lol. Emiya is the one fighting using dirty tricks… well, we knew this from the start, that’s what makes Fate/Zero more interesting. And maybe I am being petty and vain, but I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Emiya break down like a baby, although it’s quite amazing just how much he’s shitting his pants over Kirei. Of course, that’s only half the reason, the other half being Irisviel, but still… wow.
>takashid
I’m sure he gets that there’s an explanation. It just looked silly and lacked tension. Especially compared to the other two battles.
I was really amazed at the stupidity Saber showed in this episode. Actually standing aside and letting an enemy servant just walk right up to her master, and leaving him defenseless. The only reason it actually worked is because Lancer is a similar kind of honor loving fool. Something i wish they had added was Kiritsugu’s inner thoughts during that scene, after Lancer escapes. He points out a huge flaw in sabers decision to let Lancer go, which is what if Kayneth had still been conscious when Lancer arrived, and had used a command spell to force him to attack? Bam. Kiritsugu dead, Saber out of the war, and Iri and Maiya heartbroke, all just cause Saber decided to be an idiot over her honor.
@vertigo chateau, I guess chivalry means nothing to you. Lancer has already promised to face Saber in a fair fight. We have already seen that he values honer greatly. There wasn’t a chance he was going to dis-honor himself by taking a cheap shot. Also he’s a knight and any knight wishes to face a worthy foe in a test of skill.
That doesn’t make them fools. It just means that they are decent human beings. Unlike you.
@AidanAK47
So much for chivalry if by bad luck Kayneth was still conscious and used a command spell to force Lancer to kill Kiritsugu. Good going, Saber! You nearly had your master killed thanks to your chivalry.
Kayneth already wasted one command spell and you can bet he would think twice about using another. Plus using command spells isn’t as simple a task as it looks.
He was full of rage, if he could’ve he would’ve used one. I’m sorry that you don’t understand that Saber is retarded.
This was the first episode I downloaded to watch, so I can finally appreciate how good the animation is. Not only that, it was a pretty good episode.
I don’t think Kayneth was in any position to do anything, fortunately. I got the feeling that Kayneth had a tremendous advantage over Emiya and Emiya’s “trap” carried huge risks. It would only work if Kayneth had a large majority of his magic circuits working when the bullet hit. Any mistake and it would be Emiya who would be screwed. And lets not forget that Kayneth was the one who took the initiative to attack Emiya when he was supposed to have suspended all hostilities and gone after Caster first. I don’t see this as a calculated move by Emiya but rather an emergency contingency should the worse happen. And they didn’t get away quite unscathed here. Kotomine was pretty scary. He couldn’t have known Iria was protected by Avalon yet he hurt her very badly. I suppose he didn’t consider her to be human, merely a magical creation.
Questions of chivalry aside, in Saber’s defense, I don’t think she was aware of the predicament Emiya was under but I can imagine she was none too impressed with Emiya’s last trick to bomb a whole hotel to kill Kayneth and Lancer instead of letting her and Lancer settle things in a duel. She and Lancer made quite a duo dealing with Caster and, in gratitude, she let him go rescue his master instead of pursuing Caster, with the unspoken promise that they wouldn’t hurt each others’ Masters and would deal with each other themselves. I do think it’s odd that Saber didn’t accompany him though, at least at the time, since letting Lancer go would have put Emiya at risk. As honorable as Lancer is, his Master isn’t anything close. Again, I’m surprised Kayneth managed to summon him. I would have imagined Kayneth getting a Servant closer to his own scheming personality. Perhaps it has something to do with the mana sharing thing with the 2nd Master.
Emiya is the one fighting using dirty tricks…
One thing about Emiya and Kotomine, notice how their eyes are drawn as blank patches of color. There’s one more character drawn with that type of eyes: Sakura Matou. They’re used in anime to depict characters who have been traumatized and had their minds broken, losing all glint of life. Like the sole survivor of a family massacre or stuff like that. We already know what Sakura is going through so I’m expecting some nasty backstory to show up for the other two characters eventually.
@vertigo chateau, if that’s what you want to believe then do so. Ignorance is bliss after all.
@meow
A master will only summon a servant like their personality when they have no artifact to make a connection. As long as you have an artifact of the hero you can summon whoever you want. Though it helps to have a similar personality.
Indeed, ignorance is bliss. So continue being ignorant in your fanboy-zeal of defending this show’s idiotic points, AidanAK47
Hehehehe…Vertigo, your come backs are entertaining. Mainly in the manner that they work against you. But there is nothing wrong with trying.
(Pats vertigo chateau on head)
You keep trying.
@AidanAK47 — Vertigo is right, and sees it about the same way Emiya probably would have seen it. Saber only knew that Kayneth was in danger, she did not know his condition. We’ve already seen Kayneth use a command spell to order Lancer to do something he wouldn’t do otherwise.
Yes, yes, “chivalry”. That wouldn’t hold Kayneth back, not with the contempt in which he holds Emiya.
Sorry to say that AidanAK47, but I agree with vertigo. Saber did something amazingly stupid.
Chivalry? Maybe on Lancer’s part, but I am for hell sure if Kayneth had been conscious, he would have ordered Lancer to kill Kiritsugu and BAM! Game over. And even if Kiritsugu would have managed to summon Saber(which is unprobable, even with Time Alter, his speed is nothing against a Servant), would she have saved him? It was not certain whether Kiritsugu could have survived if Lancer went for the kill. Also, Kayneth still could have obtained another Command Spell by killing Caster and using a Spell to obliterate a dangerous enemy is never a waste.
You are the ignorant one and just try to troll and insult everyone, now that you lost the argument. Saber was stupid, period. She told Lancer that Kiritsugu is Saber’s true Master and openly let Lancer save Kayneth before Kiritsugu could give him the final killing blow. Besides that, it was a fight between magi, not only between Servants. Kiritsugu won and Saber, who is supposed to cooperate with him to obtain the Holy Grail, got in his way to defeat the first Master. So much about chivalry and fairness.
Saber did something amazingly stupid.
Again, I gotta point out that Saber would have no way of knowing for sure if Emiya was even with Kayneth and would be vulnerable. There’s a pretty good chance that even if Kayneth was conscious, he would prioritise his own survival and have Lancer take him to safety. I mean, he was hurt badly enough for his Servant to sense it. And even if Lancer were to come after Emiya, I don’t think he would have been completely helpless.
Lancer helped Saber out. Then he sensed that his Master was in big trouble so Saber gave him leave to go rescue him. It was understood that Lancer wouldn’t have attacked Saber’s Master himself of his own volition. Not only would it have been out of character, it would also have been the end of their honor duel. We, the audience, see what a risk it is for Emiya because of what could have been if Kayneth had been conscious but Saber would not have been privy to the situation. Fortunately, Kayneth wasn’t conscious. Fortunately, Iria had Avalon. Fortunately, Maya didn’t get killed. Unfortunately, Caster got away to kill more kids.
Everybody has their own valid points of view. Let’s respect each others differences and move on.
BTW, It’s probably just as well that Saber didn’t accompany Lancer. Imagine what might have happened if Saber hadn’t interrupted Kotomine’s interrogation.
I gotta agree with Meow. This show has enough complex characters to support a variety of interpretations so there’s no need to engage in fanboy-ish arguments or trolling.
As long we know the motivations of each characters and that they’re plausible that is enough to judge them rather than the results of their choices.
Again, I gotta point out that Saber would have no way of knowing for sure if Emiya was even with Kayneth and would be vulnerable.
If she can guess that it was Kiritsugu who gave Kayneth a dangerous wound, then she can also guess he’s alone and/or near Kayneth. In fact, she cannot guess that Kayneth’s unconscious, which only makes it worse and hardens the argument that Saber must assume Kayneth could order Lancer to kill Kiritsugu(either with or without a Command Spell doesn’t matter. Lancer is a proud Spirit who only seeks to serve his lord and secondary fight honorable fights. If he had to decide, it’s very likely that he would have to betray Saber to follow his Master’s orders. And there is still the Command Spell – nothing would change.)
It is true that Iri wouldn’t have been saved if Saber hadn’t appeared, however, that doesn’t change the fact that her decision to let Lancer go was reckless and rash. It just seemed like she willingly(Kiritsugu guessed that right, since he could still feel his and Saber’s prana flow. Also, he thought Saber somehow intercepted Lancer, since Kayneth entered the castle alone) wished to get in Kiritsugu’s way, since she doesn’t agree with his methods and so she could fight Lancer honorably. I won’t be surprised if Kiritsugu will soon return the favor and interrupt her fight with Lancer in an unglory way.
And even if Lancer were to come after Emiya, I don’t think he would have been completely helpless.
Yes, he would have been helpless. Or it would mean Saber completely trusts Kiritsugu’s survival abilites, which I highly doubt. After all, she knows he’s a sneaky assassin, that’s why she doesn’t approve of his methods.
A Master can’t possibly compete with a Servant. Even with Time Alter, if a Servant goes for the kill(maybe not Caster – in general it depends on the Servant, but most of the Servants are a lot more faster than humans), Kiritsugu has absolutely no chance to survive. Yes, he could have used a Command Spell to summon Saber, but that would be
a) very unlikely since Lancer could finish him off in that short time
and b) even if he can summon her or she would have been by his side by following Lancer, Kiritsugu cannot entrust Saber with anything because of their relationship.
Besides that, it would be a waste to use one or two Command Spells to finish off an enemy he already defeated(in the worst case, he needs one for the summoning and two to order Saber to do something she refuses. Saber can resist at least one Command Spell, thanks to her magic resistence combined with the dragon attribute).
So her actions are unfortunately neither reasonable nor plausible. When one looks at it the first time, she seems to act honorably, but if one has a second look, one will realize how foolish Saber was. AidanAK47 insinuates vertigo to not be a “decent human being” without even knowing him/her. He/She acts childish when vertigo gave a valid point for his/her opinion.
There is always room for interpretation, I am absolutely not against that or reject any criticism and opinion. However, AidanAK47 acted like his/her opinion was the only acceptable one and accuses vertigo to be ignorant. A classic example of “Don’t throw bricks when you live in a glass house.”
Myself, for the army fight, I’m waiting until Rider vs. Assassin(s), and then Rider vs. Gilgamesh. =D I expect at least the second to be amazing, though the first may or may not be animated. I’m hoping it’s animated to help flesh out the series, as the remaining episodes leave plenty of space.
Civlov, forgive me for not thinking that a character needs to make undeniable perfect decisions all the time. Even when they are completely unaware of situation elsewhere.
“(either with or without a Command Spell doesn’t matter. Lancer is a proud Spirit who only seeks to serve his lord and secondary fight honorable fights. If he had to decide, it’s very likely that he would have to betray Saber to follow his Master’s orders. And there is still the Command Spell – nothing would change.)”
Which is why he disobeyed his lord when asked to double team saber…ah. Lancer does wish to serve his lord well but above all else does he not wish to tarnish his honer even if his master wishes it. This is proven by his identity. The last thing he would want to do is repeat his past mistakes. So the only way Lancer would attack Sabers master is if a command spell is used and as you pointed out yourself.
Kiritsugu has command spells which would summon Saber to his side. Lancer would resist the command spell giving time for Kiritsugu to use his. Saber would appear, protect Kiritsugu out of obligation and Kiritsugu doesn’t need her to do anything to Kayneth because as he is now he’s pretty much useless.
As for my remarks against vertigo. Normally when one looks at a situation they think of how they would act in this person place so that gave the impression that he was the kind of person to take pride in a cheap shot. However I admit that’s an unfair judgement.
As for ignorance, the man looked at a single action of Sabers and automatically deemed her retarded. If that isn’t ignorant then what is?
Well, the thing one can blame Saber for is that she forgot the most important rule in the War, besides defeating their enemies, you know…? She missed the fact that she has to prevent her Master from any chance that could kill him, leaving her Master alone was unfortunately very reckless of her and totally out of character(heck, in FSN she tries to force Shirou to sleep with her in one futon, so she can fully protect him).
About Lancer:
That’s basically the point why he has to make his decisions. Which is more important and honorable? In the end, it’s always a hard decision, but he already went against his lord once, even though he was threatened with a geis at that time. So to not make the same mistakes again, I think it’s believable to not go against his lord, especially since he already brought shame to Kayneth by disobeying to kill Saber together with Berserker. I was completely aware that he wanted to go against Kayneth’s order, but imo he would decide to obey rather than honor a friendly agreement, since his first priority is actually to serve his master. His wish to fight honorable battles for his Master is the second priority.
I already explained why it’s not a good situation for Kiritsugu and to get out of it by using Command Spells, I hope you didn’t miss that, so I#m not gonna repeat myself again. Oh, and Lancer’s magic resistance is too low, he absolutely can’t resist a Command Spell(unlike Saber) long enough to give Kiritsugu the time to escape.
And about Saber saving Kiritsugu… that’s the point. Kiritsugu can’t be 100% sure. He can’t trust Saber with anything right now, though he blames partially his bad relationship with Saber to be the reason. And again, it would be a move which wasn’t necessary, a waste. And you don’t seem to understand Kiritsugu’s character and thinking yet(which I can’t blame you for that; based on his screentime and the progress of the anime/novel, it’s very hard to understand it). Kiritsugu doesn’t want any risks. He effectively made Kayneth useless already(and Kayneth would ahve died because of his destroyed internal organs, anyway), but he must make sure that his target is eliminated. That’s a minor spoiler for next episode, so read with caution:
Lancer is still in the war, now that Sola-Ui has Kayneth’s Command Spells. And that’s what Kiritsugu absolutely didn’t want to happen. As long as the Master isn’t absolutely dead(the same actually goes for his Servant, too), there is a chance for a comeback, either for Lancer by finding a new Master with Command Spells or Kayneth, who gives the Command Spells to someone else.
And now comes a veeery big SPOILER)And that’s exactly why he did something horrible and ruthless to eliminate Lancer and his Masters to prevent such a situation to happen(again). He forced Kayneth to command Lancer to kill himself, so that Lancer can no longer form another contract and then shot down both Sola-Ui and Kayneth(even though both lost all their Command Spells at this point – however, he considered the chance for Kayneth who is protected by the church, to obtain extra Command Spells and thus again would become a Master one more time) to not leave any chance for any of them to somehow pay back for whatever.
SPOILER END
Saber being retarded(wait, vertigo only called her “stupid” and “fool”. vertigo probably based that opinion on VN knowledge, as he/she admitted to be pretty amazed and I guess, anyone who has experienced FSN would think so, too. At least I was, because it’s ooc. I never would have thought, that Saber “forgot” to keep Kiritsugu from harm, just because she gets irritated because of him). While I basically don’t agree with this, that wasn’t probably just based on that action alone as I can guess that vertigo read the Light Novel. That was not her only totally irrational action and won’t be her last one, actually.
Or better: she also doesn’t obey her Master, which only complicates things. Kiritsugu wants to use the most effective method with the least damage and Saber can only disagree with this(because she sees it as a duty to fight with morale and dignity or else war(in general) would become a living hell. Funny, isn’t it…?), hence the conflict between those two. Basically, her chivalry and her stubborn way to follow her ideals(which is amusingly the same problem Shirou has) only lead to dangerous situations and could end up killing her or one of her allies. It’s just that particularly that one scene was amazingly out of character regarding Saber. And thankfully, she learns from her mistakes in FSN(wanting to mercilessly kill Rin and Ilya, as they are masters without a second thought for example. Though one would raise their eyebrows, since she wanted to kill the child of one of her frieds(and “foes” – Kiritsugu), Iri). If Kiritsugu had killed Kayneth, the contract with Lancer would have been broken, he would disappear, Saber’s curse would have been lifted and she could fully protect Iri or whatever; strike down her enemies with all she’s got.
For instance, she can use Excalibur against Caster again and can easily blow him and his monsters off with one hit. She doesn’t even have to use Excali sparingly, she has a good mana supply with Kiritsugu as her Master.
But it’s better to end this discussion now. Our opinions differ and that won’t probably change. I just hope you understand why I had to defend vertigo in this argument and how I see that scene from my viewpoint, respectively partially from Kiritsugu’s viewpoint.
@Clive, I agree our opinions are too different so I will leave no this last note.
Vertigo did call Saber retarded. Read comment number 10. On another note I did not say that sabers decision was wise at any point. However I wanted to say how such a decision may have made sense at the time. Also while Saber was very cautious in fate/stay night this could be because it was her second Grail war and she had a less capable master.
As for the arguments, it’s all based on what if scenarios. For every argument you can present I can say say a counter argument just as you can do the same to me. The point is that whether Sabers decision was foolish or not the situation still turned out in their favor. That’s all the matters.
you’re missing the point if all you can to do is criticize what Saber does as being stupid.
The point here is this is a critical point in her character. The “stupid nobility” is the reason she took up the sword for Britain, waged war against the revolution by her own son, and went on to win everything only to have lost everything.
It makes even more sense later on, but ever since she became a King she sacrificed wisdom for showing a higher way of life, no matter what the sacrifice. Only she starts to regret that maybe there wasn’t a better way, a wiser way so that’s why she’s here to get the grail. She acknowledges she’s not the omniscient person who deserves to rule so she wishes for someone else who could.
That said it’s the defining characteristic of her character and the crux of her character development, whether the noble path is worth of emulation no matter what the circumstances, consequences. OOC would not be responding to Lancer helping her out, or anything outside of the honorable duel they agreed to begin with.
And for another note, Lancer clearly states his master is in serious danger, Lancer can’t do anything to fix that besides getting his Master to safety. He could take a second to try and take Emiya out, but between getting there, and rushing to get his master first-aid, as someone like Saber recognizes as a honorable and duty bound character, (established all the way back from ep 4), it’s not entirely stupid to assume he’ll go. And like Lancer said in this ep, it’s only Saber’s nobility that saves Emiya. She did him a favor and as one noble knight to another, he is obligated to respond honorably.
Saber’s hot.