What I find to be strange is that the creators go out of their way to mention the 20 rules of mystery, only to ignore a few of them, most notably the rules that state that there should be one and only one detective. For the finished product, one of the characters had to step up and take the role as detective, or perhaps the seventh person that the writer was looking for was supposed to have been that person.
Apart from that I guess Oreki’s theory fits most of the rules if you very broadly interpret them. In particular there is Knox’s first rule which says that the culprit should be mentioned in an early part of the story. Yeah, I guess that he was “mentioned” by being there through the entire course of the movie: it’s a different medium than what these rules were intended for after all. Or take the rule that says that the culprit must have played a more or less prominent part in the story: again, he has, you just didn’t realize it. There is one rule I’m a bit iffy about though: the one that says that no willful tricks may be played upon the reader. Did Oreki assume that the usage of a cameraman as an actual character wasn’t so much a trick, as it was something that is just a part of the movie?
Still, it’s pretty interesting to think that he did get things wrong. With the Hyouka mystery he only missed a few parts, but this rope is a pretty big thing to miss out on. The acting was also really well done at that moment where Mayaka called Hotarou out on this, and we definitely got to see some new sides of the characters.
Rating: *+ (Great)
well, considering that oreki pointed out that there were abnormalities that pointed at the cameraman as being a character (and if i understood correctly, even obvious to the audience that he/she was the culprit), i guess you could also say that there was no “willful trick” in that manner.
on the issue of houtarou missing the rope trick, i thought that was quite ironic considering this was houtarou’s big moment and possibly the one point in the anime so far where he began to acknowledge his “talent.”
i thought that was quite ironic
I wondered if the writer was trying to make Oreki have realistic limitations. He has a talent but it’s not omnipotent. He’s great at crunching data and presenting a solution but he sucks at actually collecting or even remembering that data. Take away his database and people to shoot down his ideas or present others and he gets less than perfect results. There’s no way he would have solved the Hyouka case without everyone else’s research and his sister mentioning to him how the Kanya Fair name is taboo. In a way, his self evaluation is kind of accurate. He’s been pretty lucky and didn’t do it alone. It’s just that no one but him noticed and so they have somewhat exaggerated expectations of him.
that’s something that makes a good deal of sense. unlike other detective figures, houtarou really depends on the others to help him bring the pieces together and keep him on track. the mysteries are mundane compared to other mysteries, but that makes a wider variety of possibilities plausible. keeping on that track is pretty hard when there’s so many options to choose from. i guess it fits with his “save energy” motto to have the other members narrow things down for him. it also makes you wonder, as irisu said that houtarou was the one that interested her and not the rest of the classics club. but the qualities of the classic club all together is part of the reason i think they get any mysteries solved at all.
Well, Irisu wouldn’t be familiar with the dynamics of the Classics club or who contributes what to solving their mysteries. She would only know about what Chitanda, Tomoe and Masashi had told her. In the Hyouka case, Chitanda and Tomoe would have reasonably credited Oreki with fitting the pieces together to figure out the secret to it’s meaning while overlooking whoever provided the pieces to Oreki in the first place. And in the movie’s case, in the end, Oreki only had the pieces available to him at the time and didn’t have the others’ support. I don’t think it was a bad conclusion but I suspect there may be some consequences to failing to properly solve Hongou’s intentions for the movie – much like failing to solve Chitanda’s missing memories of her uncle.
It seems like a plothole that between Oreki’s last meeting with Irisu and the preview of the finished movie, the Classics Club hadn’t met up to discuss the movie at least once though. But I guess it’s cool that this week’s episode ended much like the Hyouka arc’s pre-finale, with a dramatic to-be-continued.
That’s because Irisu got the tip about Oreki from a certain someone, and although she was told he needed to be motivated right, she did so her way.
Also in term of his detective skills, the dynamic work very much like a crime drama where every one has a part to play.
What people has so far ignored, is the human element to it all,which is what Chitanda cares about. To figure out the true intention of Hougou, you have to figure out what happened to the movies and work backwards and they’ve actually provided all the clues you needed to figure it out.
Psgels, you’re late. XD I was waiting for you to post your review and open up a discussion.
I have a feeling that Oreki’s theory is way off from what Hongou had in mind, and the rope is just a straw that broke the camel’s back, unraveling his whole scenario. On the other hand, his solution may have been the best practical solution to resolving issues with the initial footage without having to retake scenes. It’s a very workable solution but is far from Hongou’s true intentions.
I think an important theme of this episode is how handicapped Oreki is without the help of the rest of the Classics Club. This time, he had to work out the problem on his own, based on what he could remember from the group’s last discussion (he forgot about the rope for one thing), Satoshi’s notes, Mayaka’s last minute observations and the original partial movie footage. I don’t get why he didn’t go back to the script and I think him ignoring the minutes of the class meetings was a mistake. He’s great at working out solutions but was working with incomplete information. I think Chitanda had some valuable insights from the minutes but was rather dramatically taken out of action by the alcoholic chocolate. (Kinda reminds me of her cold during the raid on the News clubroom too.) I think the complete solution would be more in line with the mystery rules mentioned earlier. (Sorry, I’m not too familiar with them.)
There’s some interesting character development too. This is the most upset I’ve ever seen Satoshi. I suspect it was because of Irisu, a senpai he respects (or even has feelings for?) singling out Oreki for help without him. We also see the depth of Mayaka’s very obvious motive for being in the Classics club here. As soon as Satoshi is gone, she leaves too, prioritizing her library duties even though she seemed willing to ditch it while Satoshi was there. Another Mayaka development is how disappointed she seems that Oreki hadn’t taken the rope into account in his final solution. There’s this expectations gap between what everyone thinks Oreki can
do and what Oreki can actually do.
Also extremely interesting to me is Irisu bringing up Masashi as one of the three people whom Irisu heard from about Oreki. How did Irisu find out about Oreki from Masashi? I highly doubt Masashi would have told her about Oreki ordinarily because it would mean bringing up the suspicious circumstances surrounding what he does in his News Club room. Is Irisu involved in that somehow? She’s the daughter of the local hospital and would have access to medical drugs. Hmmmm…..
Just what was Masashi hiding in the medical safe?
Also, I just noticed that there is a character in the cast of this arc named EBA. Did anyone who hadn’t read ahead in the novels notice?
I hope more people will participate in this discussion and share their insights because I’m kinda flailing with this series. It seems to require a high level of japanese to fully understand and a lot seems lost in translation. For example, would you read the next episode’s title as Fool’s End Role (as in a role in the cast) or End Roll (as in the ending credits roll)? Perhaps it’s meant as a mix of both? I’ve probably gone overboard again so please forgive me. XD
As far as Masashi, you’ll have to remember her image is basically a manipulative and commanding person, “The Empress”. Her figuring out Masashi’s habit(and kept it a secret) is probably not a big deal. Also I think the anime over played the adversity in that scene
They did talk about Eba, just not always by her given name(since it is common to use family name when refer to someone not familiar) She’s the one that led the other around to the classic club and basically was the correspondent for them. She also practically beg them to help complete the movie.
The name was Fool’s end roll, and on the meaning of the phrase it’s because ultimately the credit went to Houtarou, but also remember Chitanda was the Fool in their discussion of Tarots(Houtarou’s reason for being Strength is actually quite hilarious for me).
Her figuring out Masashi’s habit(and kept it a secret) is probably not a big deal.
I can buy her figuring out Masashi’s secret but how would Oreki’s name have popped up? Unless she witnessed the News club raid herself or someone else who was there (Chitanda?) mentioned it to her, how would she have known to ask Masashi about Oreki? And if Masashi was the one who volunteered the information to her, I’d have to ask why. Unless she was in on whatever Masashi was up to, he’d be digging his own grave. Either they’re dating or share whatever they’ve got in that safe. Hmmm…
She also practically beg them to help complete the movie
Has this happened yet? We’re talking about that quiet girl who leads the Classics Club to the three would-be mystery theorists right? The one who looked like a female version of Oreki who admitted to being completely disinterested in getting involved in the movie at all but was best friends with Hongou?
We also ignore the simple explanation that they could’ve just been friends
yeah, remember she bowed to them and showed a little bit of emotion? for the record I think she look more tired than disinterested
We also ignore the simple explanation that they could’ve just been friends
Sorry if I seem pushy. I’m trying to figure out Irisu’s character. She gives the impression of a strict, responsible person of authority that puts pressure even on her accomplished senpai. I’m not sure if she would overlook a student, even a friend, making a serious breach of school rules like smoking or drugs, especially when it harms the perpetrator himself as well as others around him. So if she’s in on something like this, either Masashi has already been dealt with somehow behind the scenes or I’ve misjudged Irisu’s character or the whole situation with what’s in the safe. What if it’s not smoking or drugs but something else entirely? Irisu bringing Masashi up out of the blue like that just raised a red flag for me and I wanted to raise the issue for discussion. Let’s agree to disagree.
for the record I think she look more tired than disinterested
Food for thought. Thanks. I’m getting a fair idea what may have happened to Hongou. Can’t wait for next week for confirmation.
EDIT:daughter of the local hospital chairperson/owner(?)
Van Dine’s First: The story must be solveable. All clues must be plainly stated and described.
It was NEVER hinted that the cameraman was the seventh person. It was never even hinted that the movie is from a first person perspective, instead of a third person. Houtarou took a few instances of bad camera-ing to lead that it’s a seventh person.
Van Dine’s Second: No deceptions can be pulled on the reader other than those played on the detective.
Pretty much the same applies, the viewer never had any proper indications of a seventh person.
Knox’s 1st
The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow.
The cameraman was never mentioned full stop.
I was pretty relieved to see that he got it wrong.
Yeah. I get the feeling Oreki isn’t familiar with the rules either. I remember how he mistook Knox’s rules for something else in the beginning of the arc. I seriously doubt he would have read up on how the rules work. XD Only Satoshi or possibly Mayaka could have been able to help. I had a strong feeling he was going to get it wrong the minute it was revealed that he would be going at it alone. His final solution wasn’t bad though if his purpose was simply to make the movie successful.
I’m really curious about Hongou’s true intentions and the circumstances that stopped her from completing the project. There’s too little info revealed about their circumstances to speculate. I wonder if we’re supposed to infer something from this arc’s title similarity to the Christie novel (thanks, wicked! XD).
Houtarou took a few instances of bad camera-ing to lead that it’s a seventh person.
The thing is, is this a case of choosing between a mediocre execution of a great(?) plan or a great spin on a mediocre execution?
I suppose if the whole Classics Club had been assembled, Houtarou could have come up with something to fix the story to Hongou’s intentions but it would probably mean redoing some scenes. I’m not sure if the class would have been happy about it. It seems to me, at least for now, that Houtarou’s spin on the existing footage seemed like the best way to make the movie successful to it’s audience without too much extra effort.
On the multiple detective thing.
“Why didn’t they ask EBA” is a reference to “Why didnt they ask Evans” by Christie, the movie is actually inspire by part of the book(when the author wrote it, not Hongou who read exclusively Sherlock Holmes). While the case solve pays tribute to Anthony Berkaley’s “The Poisoned Chocolates Case” which is one of the most original mysteries to be written. In it the case was separately investigated by 7 side that are consider to be talented in the art of investigation and presented 7 different theories.
You’ll find Satoshi and Mayaka essentially poke giant holes in Oreki’s theory without ever invoking any of the rules, while Chitanda is focused on a different mystery entirely
“Why didn’t they ask EBA” is a reference to “Why didnt they ask Evans” by Christie, the movie is actually inspire by part of the book(when the author wrote it, not Hongou who read exclusively Sherlock Holmes).
Wow. Thanks! Good to know. Never read either of these novels. I wonder if I should do some research on them now or after the arc has concluded. Might give some good context on how this arc might come out.
The inspiration is mostly superficial in term of setting, not the execution, you wont figure much out
The posion chololate case though really was a stroke of genius that many author tried to replicate late. It was a milestone work in term of detective stories
Nice. Gotta check it out.
I may have got it wrong, but the mystery here is not the movie at all, when this arc started Irisu was talking with someone else besides chitanda and something on the veins of “you will not get it your way” was said (I didn’t rewatch the episode so I may have gotten it wrong).
About Irisu, i’m pretty sure she isn’t the moralist and good hearted empress, she is far closer to the “manipulative bitch” empress, in tarot while the Emperor can be read as control through power the empress can be read as control through subtlety (manipulation). The smile she gave when Oreki “figured” it out, at least for me wasn’t a smile of her being proud of him and for having trusted him, but of her being proud of herself for having won the bet or whatever game she is playing.
Two other things Oreki forgot beyond what everyone already cited: first is the amount of blood whose makes me think the movie isn’t a crime mystery, but prank between friends mystery, or maybe a prank turned crime one, when someone really dies through the rope he also forgot (ok, this was a stretch haha) he also forgot to find the meaning and eventually use the pages that were found on the books Hongou was using for research, but again those pages may have been cues for the real mistery, not the movies.
Irisu was talking with someone else besides chitanda and something on the veins of “you will not get it your way” was said
I think the first handphone SMS was a message from Hongou to Irisu, saying that she had reached her limit and had to back out and apologizing to everyone involved. Irisu replied to her that it couldn’t be helped, she had done well under the circumstances and Irisu would do something about it from there. But she also cautioned Hongou that even if things worked out, it would not work out the way Hongou had planned.
but of her being proud of herself for having won the bet or whatever game she is playing.
Possible but her eyes when she smiled looked pretty gentle and sincere rather than triumphant. *shrug* While Tomoe may have been the prankster type, my read of Irisu is the straight-laced, strict type, the kind that would try to keep Tomoe in line. Reminds me of Hibiki to Haruka in Amagami. (Coincidentally, Tomoe and Haruka have the same voice actress. XD)
(Coincidentally, Tomoe and Haruka have the same voice actress. XD)
I just need to quickly shoot myself in the head here for making this stupid blunder. I happened to look up the cast. Tomoe is voiced by Satsuki Yukino, who also voiced Chidori in Full Metal Panic. Haruka is voiced by Shizuka Itou. I can’t believe I mixed them up!! X(
oreki wrong because oreki not with chitanda when he solved the mystery..
Damn, I hope oreki is wrong, i will erase all my negative view of this show if it happen
Pretty sure he is wrong, as in what he came out with was not Hongou’s intentions.
On the other hand, his intepretation may have been the best to deal with all the flaws in the initial filming.
Irisu set him up. The writers never ignored Knox’s 20 rules or whatever; they showed that OREKI ignored them while crafting his theory, and thus that he’s gonna be wrong. Irisu is just taking him down a notch. You can even see her little smile when she realizes that Oreki got it wrong. I’m interested in seeing how Oreki is gonna deal with being wrong.
I also liked Satoshi’s little moment of darkness this episode where he tells Oreki he’s jealous of him. Very nice characterization.
Irisu is just taking him down a notch.
Interesting theory but I doubt it. I think Irisu was seriously trying to fix the movie and make it a success and said and did all the things she did to get Oreki to help. And I don’t see Oreki seeing himself as Mr. I’m-Always-Right. He’s always saying that he was just lucky to get the answer right and would rather have someone else bother with it altogether.
I agree – which is why I interpretted the ending very differently from what I’ve read. Why was the reaction to the missing rope so dark anyways? Hotarou has been wrong in the past. Why the music, and the flickering monchrome?
I think the missing rope has something to do with a plot outside the movie – like something to do with the missing writer. And I think that the text we saw at the beginning of this arc has something to do with it too.
Why the music, and the flickering monchrome?
I think it’s meant to represent Oreki’s shock that he had forgotten that crucial piece of the puzzle in his deliberations and now the grand theory he had implemented no longer made any sense. He had mostly focused on the actual existing footage.
I think the missing rope has something to do with a plot outside the movi
I’m not sure about any outside uses of the rope but I think it was intended to be in the movie since Hongou requested the propmaster to prepare it. I’m assuming it wasn’t used simply because of creative differences with the people who shot the first footage. Hongou wasn’t there and may have just given up after finding out how they had changed the murder scene so much that her original script would no longer make sense. Perhaps they no longer had the time or resources to retake the scene by the time Hongou reviewed the footage.
You have to realize that in term of the her goal, which is getting the movie done, Houtarou did a brilliant job, in not only completing the movie, but did so in spectacular fashion as he was able to offer a twist and surprised ending while making the bad camera work and poor acting seem deliberate. I think you misinterpret the smile as something menacing, though I dont blame you given what was told and shown about her so far
Since Houtarou was wrong, does anyone have any theories as to what actually happened in the movie and who the culprit was?
The clues so far…(Please add if I missed something)
According to the director guy, Kounousu had a special role in the movie. It was suggested that she had mountain climbing skills and that it would be called for in the movie. It’s suggested by the prop master that the rope would be used to climb through the window but assuming the window wasn’t used (it was stuck). I’m wondering if there was a hidden hole in the ceiling but so far nothing has been revealed to suggest this possibility. Incidentally, Kounousu’s character’s assigned search area was the area above the murder scene. Kounousu was also the one who introduces the audience to the keys, including the master key so her character may have been aware of which key opens what door. She was also the second person to select her key right after the victim.
There’s a reveal of a page of the minutes of a class meeting that seems to show that the class had voted for a lot of things. There were two items revealed: The 31st item voted on was the murder weapon and the 32nd item was the number of culprits. Interestingly, the top two votes were for a knife murder (10 votes) vs a strangulation by rope (8 votes). Hongou would have final say on what the murder method would be though. There was also a 10 vote majority for there to be two culprits.
The biggest obstacle to forming a theory is the ad-libbing the filming team did during the shoot though. Just how far did they stray from Hongou’s script? We know for certain that there was too much blood used. I suspect the separated arm was also an ad-lib. It looks like the script of that scene just required the victim to appear seriously hurt in one look and to be unresponsive to calls. Sugimura was supposed to try to help him but to find blood on his hand from trying.
Another clue are the props revealed. While a rope strong enough to carry a person’s weight was prepared, along with a small amount of blood, no knife was requested.
I’ll point you the clues that are important, the rope has to be strong enough to carry a person, they did use too much blood. If you know enough about Sherlock Holmes, the list and the build design. 7th man is a smokescreen
I keep seeing people say this and it’s really bothering me and makes me wonder what kind of subtitles people watched. I personally know a little bit of Japanese and usually watch Chinese subtitles. The minutes of the class meeting showing the 32nd item they voted on was NOT the number of culprits but the number of DEAD PEOPLE. The kanji was 死者 which literally translates to “dead people.” It only makes sense that the vote is the number of dead people because some of the votes went to “100” and “all dead” and it makes no sense for there to be 100 culprits or the number of culprits is “all dead”. Hopefully this helps people solve the real mystery and Hongou’s intentions since the majority voted on 2 people dead but in the movie only 1 died, why did Hongou make such a change and what does it say about Hongou? I’m curious, kininarimasu!
Thanks for the translation! My mistake. My japanese sucks and I don’t think any fan translators bothered to translate the text in the minutes or the script. Incidentally, did I misunderstand anything in the script from my earlier posts? This is one of the reasons why I post verbose descriptions of my thoughts and conclusions. If you spot any other mistakes or misunderstandings, please let me know.
It made sense to me that there might be two culprits though. The major reason the right-hand corridor leading to the murder scene is a secondary sealed area is because Sugimura could have spotted anyone going in. But what if he was working with the murderer or was the murderer himself? Actually, he was my first suspect when I first saw the movie footage, given how close he was to the master key (he was just upstairs) and was somehow the last person to rejoin the group, even though he only had one small room to check. He also seemed nervous during the character introduction. This is assuming the camera viewpoint doesn’t actually represent a character, of course.
Oh yeah! Forgot to add that Hongou was apparently looking for a 7th cast member. No idea what her intentions for this 7th character were though.
Hm. I wonder if there are enough clues out yet to figure out Hongou’s intentions for the movie….
This episode reminded me so much of umineko. Willard and Dlanor of the Eiserne Jungfrau. Dlanor represented the Knox Decalogue while Willard represented the Van Dine’s Commandments.DIE THE DEATH! SENTENCE TO DEATH! DEATH THE GREAT EQUALIZER!