The second half of this episode took some huge risks. This series has been very composed in terms of acting; with some exceptions, the acting in this series was subdued and even during the over the top parts, the characters knew exactly how to act with just enough restraint whilst still giving off great performances. This episode drops that and descends into overblown melodrama. Not just to show how a character feels, but also vital to the story.
These are the moments when a character completely loses it. They’re not meant to be pretty, they just are about characters completely breaking down and looking very ugly in the process. This is incredibly hard to act right because it’s just all too easy to scream at the top of your lungs and do the most outrageous thing out there. Another key to this is willing suspension disbelief: as a viewer we really need to get the idea that these characters have broken down. Which is why I’m a bit puzzled that the creators chose to do this with the master who has gotten the least amount of airtime to get fleshed out so far. To be honest, that breakdown scene… it didn’t really hit me and looked more silly due to how little we actually know of these two people. It also felt like there was just too little build-up and aftermath for it. Tohsaka killed the woman, walked away and immediately we switch to Archer and Kirei sitting back and having some wine celebrating. It… doesn’t flow well.
Also, an observation that I made before this all happened: in the first season, Rider really was the stand-out character: his charisma and monologues were wonderful and it brought a lot of spark to the series. In the second season… this just doesn’t apply at all. He has been weakened and beaten pretty often, with in this episode him losing his chariot, in favor of characters as Kotomine Kirei and Kiritsugu. This can be quite interesting build-up if the final episodes know how to handle it.
Rating: * (Good)
I believe his name is Matou Kariya. Anyway, that scene didn’t hit me as well. But the part where he place his head closely beside her instead of over her, which strangling scenes usually look like, is a nice touch.
On a side note, Kirei’s voice has been bugging me since the first episode, I was confused for a long time trying to figure out who’s voice his belonged to while they were walking in circles. But hearing him being called Father this episode, it finally fit.
“Tohsaka killed the woman” – probably meant Kariya there.
Alexander annoyed me alot as well in this episode. Charges head-on on an enemy aimlessy? How many countries did he conquer by that?
Kariya was fleshed enough and he was one of the most popular Masters, it’s typical Urobuchi Gen tragedy here.
And Rider is the same old Rider, is just that things are pretty hard and he’s being affected too. He didn’t charged head-on on an enemy aimlessy, it was a 50-50 situation and the only way he had to win Saber, so he tried. At the end, he was worried about Waver so he jumped.
well, he was also holding back, saving his Ionioi Hetairoi for another, while Saber used her strongest phantasm Excalibur. Waver is really an inadequate magician for a servant like Rider, and he realized this last episode I believe.
This is why Saber won without struggle:
a) He didn’t want to kill her, only best her. Saber, on the other hand, always aims to kill. She’s a lot more ruthless than he is.
b) His chariot wasn’t in optimal condition. It’s in the previous episode. Clearler in the novel, that it can only fly but not really be used as full power because of prana depletion (he refuses to take from Waver and uses his own sources or the leylines. It’s Saber’s issue with Shirou in FSN, only hers isn’t willing).
c) And yes, he ditched a chance of victory to rescue Waver (not very clear in this episode).
Kariya doesnt have much of a purpose in the whole Grail War, pretty much every single appearance he gets, he’s been obsessed with hating Tokiomi and and saving Sakura, and all of it stems from his unrequited love for Tokiomi’s wife which I think was established during his first appearance on the show. Literally every single one of his appearances so far has been about building up to that moment
I am surprised you didn’t comment on the motorcycle scene. Cause I got to say that was the best combination of CG and animation I have ever seen. It was flawless.
On the Kariya scene, I am mixed on it. Though the problems I have with it are the exaggerated facial expressions which looked more comical than expressive and the way they made it seem that Kariya did it intentionally where as in the Light novel he did it in a fit of madness because he was pretty much mentally broken at that point. They should have shown him strained while talking to Kirei instead of talking calmly.
Though maybe extra scenes from the Blurays would fix this.
Ryder was victorious. He evaded her trumph card without using his. If he really wanted, he could have beaten her, since she shouldnt be able to use Excalibur again so soon. But he was aware of Archer, so he restrained himself. Dont go after one prey wish so much tirst… Risk only this much, and if dont work, dont push. Ryder really is a great caracter.
Wow..talk about a server case of denial
So tell me what would have happened if he did use his noble fantasm after Saber’s attack. Who do you think would win? He just didnt want to.
Gustavo, Rider lost one of his greatest assets in a gamble that gained him nothing and now only has a trump card which can only be used once or twice more. Excalibur can recharge but that chariot ain’t coming back.
A lost battle is a lost battle. Accept it.
Hm….”suspension of disbelief”. Definitely felt this in many ways after watching this episode.
Saber should have been tracking Irisviel. Not Rider specifically. Plus even though Berserker was disguised, I can’t believe that includes his presence. I’m a bit disappointed that Saber wound up tracking the wrong target.
I’m also annoyed that Rider used his Chariot on Saber instead of going in for close-range combat. He said he had a lesson to teach Saber. That should have meant communication, the crossing of swords at close range. An epic duel that could have eventually culminated in a chariot charge. This series could use a glorious moment amidst all this dark tragedy. Instead there’s just this quick senseless charge that has no chance of being successful. No feints. No tactics. Geez, Rider’s actually seen this move in action. He should have been better prepared. And after Saber rather predictably wins, she just turns and leaves without another word. What about asking what happened to Irisviel, at the very least? Why’d she waste all that mana, including setting off her Noble Phantasm when she had a more important task at hand?
I’m incredibly disappointed in Kariya and even Aoi losing their cools that way. Especially Aoi’s accusation at Kariya for taking Sakura from her makes no sense to me. Way before the war started, Kariya had already demanded to know from Aoi why Sakura had been handed over to Zouken. She should have known that Kariya had left the Matous and had nothing to do with it. Unless she was blaming Kariya leaving the Matous as the reason Sakura wound up in Matou hands, which is even more pathetic. And why didn’t Aoi notice that Tokiomi had been dead for awhile? Why didn’t any of them question this whole situation? Especially Kariya. Does he ever suspect Kirei’s involvement? I would have expected him to have just folded and cried. Or run away. Why attack Aoi? This is one of the most disgusting scenes I’ve seen yet. What detail there was in the scene of Kariya strangling Aoi. What a dark, evil story. This is why I refused to watch Kara no Kyoukai. I think I’m going to be very cautious of touching anything Type-Moon or Nitroplus come out with ever again. =.=
Sigh…sorry for the rant. I’m asking myself wtf I’m doing watching this crap. I hate this kind of thing.
Well, aboute Kariya: Aoi saw her dead husband and Kariya at the crime scene. She felt hatred and wanted to hurt Kariya somehow. Then, its obvious that she would start saying things to that intent, even if she knew they werent true. She just wanted to hurt him. My ex-girlfriend did it many times. Women just are like that.
About Saber and Rider: Rider is a conqueror. As he himself explained, if he did win against Saber using her most powerfull attack, she would be conquered and would even be willing to join his army. He’s a conqueror! And Saber knew he would attack after she did what she did. There’s no excuses for attacking someone like that. “Oh, I’m sorry for trying to kill you now, Good Sir. See ya!”… This would not work at all. And, above all, she wanted to accept the challenge. And wanted to end it fast. Had she used any other trick, she would have lost the battle really fast. Rider is not to be underestimated. After seeing Rider losing his will to go any further in the battle, she just went away.
There’s nothing so wrong with the episode. You’re just not looking with the right eyes. 🙂
Gustavo, your contempt for women is uncalled for. Despite what you may have personally experienced, please be aware that both sexes can be cruel.
meow, I totally agree with your critique of this episode. How easily Saber lost track of Irisviel; the coincidence of the real Rider being in the exact same place, and how even he did not notice the fake Rider; the pointless fight despite Saber realizing Rider is not the one she’s after. The Kariya and Aoi encounter at the church was very frustrating in how eye-rollingly uninspired it was. This is in contrast with Lancer’s tragic demise, which had such elaborate orchestration.
I’m probably most annoyed with how easily Kirei’s plans succeed, despite how much room for error they have, and how intelligent the other characters supposedly are.
(I also have to say, Kara no Kyoukai is pretty good. It’s not really like Fate at all. The themes are more internal and touch on loneliness and self-hatred a lot. Though the first few installments are definitely better than the last.)
Servants can only track other servants. They cannot track masters. If they could then they would know straight away that Irisviel is not Saber’s master and that her true master was hiding in the docks in episode 4.
Berserker’s Noble Phantasm conceals everything about him. Hence why Waver couldn’t read his status at the docks. It isn’t a stretch to say this conceals his presence as well. Also Saber was focused on finding Rider…not Berserker.
A Saber’s best skill is close combat. Fighting her with a sword is like fighting a master martial artist with fists. While it isn’t shown well here the reason she left is because she found out she was tricked and asking Rider anything about Irisviel is pointless as he wouldn’t know anything.
It is not reasonable to expect a woman to act rationally when they just saw a man she trusted with the corpse of her husband. Aoi isn’t a forensic specialist so how could she tell that her husband was dead a while? For the most part she didn’t have any time to. Kariya’s attack is actually pretty reasonable. He is literally being eaten alive, half his body is dead and the woman he loved is screaming at him. He snapped. If anything considering everything he’s been through you should question why he didn’t go insane earlier.
And this was your excuse to not watch Kara no Kyoukai? Come on, grow some balls. Dark stories are interesting.
Berserker’s Noble Phantasm conceals everything about him.
Yes but he emits something that Saber can track. This isn’t the first time Saber’s run into both Rider and Berserker. Rider in particular, she’s been in close contact with on several occassions. Couldn’t she tell the difference? She should have been following the same entity from the start but got distracted by the Chariot instead. A reasonable mistake I suppose, but frustrating nonetheless considering it’s terrible consequences.
Servants can only track other servants.
Yes but they should also be able to sense and differential between magical auras, like bounded fields, etc. Saber displayed an unusual amount of knowledge of magic in season one when she first when to Emiya’s atelier. I would imagine Saber would have been familiar with Irisviel’s strong, unique magic signature.
If I’m wrong, I apologize. I’m basically disappointed that Saber’s awesome Chevalier and her destroying Rider’s Chariot was the result of an unfortunate coincidence. I was also looking forward to an epic confrontation between Rider and Saber, perhaps a continuation of their war of words during the Dialogue of Kings. Rider had a point to make to Saber but it looks like he never got to make it.
A Saber’s best skill is close combat.
Yes but Rider is no slouch either. He may have been at a disadvantage but I daresay Saber would have her work cut out for her. A drawn out duel would have worked, perhaps ending in what we see here. It doesn’t seem like it makes any difference either way since Iris winds up in Kirei’s hands anyway but I think it would have been more epic. Instead, it feels like we got a rushed little skirmish between two parties who had no good reason to be fighting each other that winds up giving the bad guys a terrible advantage.
To add salt to the wound, Kariya inexplicably winds up murdering Aoi in a reasonable fit of blind rage. What a way to get rid of the loose ends in the cast. I for one never knew Rin was an orphan. I knew she lost her dad but not her mom too. And what a way for her to die. I’m sorry Aidan, but watching a grieving husband and mother getting strangled to death in great detail by someone who supposedly cherished her, no matter how well it fits the story, simply does not entertain me. Especially on top of all the gut wrenching stuff that’s been happening since after Caster got taken down. To each his own I suppose.
Saber’s stats are better than Rider’s because of the Class and the quality of magus who summoned them. Facing her in close combat is bad.
The only ones in this war who would be able to defeat her in a close combat are Lancer and Berserker.
Rider was in no condition for a drawn out fight like saber against lancer, and the fact that he’s a rider shows that his talent lies else where(Shirou Archer was the only aberration in the series who had superior talents in fields other than his class designation). He had to rest in spirit form before because maintaining a physical form would use up his prana and he’s reserving it for another fight
As far as tracking magic users, Servants can sense other servants but it’s not so much a magical radar, more like a magical motion sensor. In fact, in the novel she was visually tracking the Berserker as he jumps up and down, with periods which she cannot see, so when rider showed up again with the chariot and waver, she assumed that rider wanted to fight her full strength. The fact that Irisviel was not with him confused her, but by that time, she was already engaged in battle
Rider was going to confront Saber anyways, the fight was inevitable
“This is one of the most disgusting scenes I’ve seen yet. What detail there was in the scene of Kariya strangling Aoi. What a dark, evil story.”
Welcome to Gen Urobuchi. No one gets a HAPPY END.
Not exactly. If you are a psychotic murder or evil bastard then you get a happy end. After all Caster and Ryūnosuke were the only ones to receive the kindest deaths.
You’d basically have to be insane to be happy about it. If you wear your normal lens, they both die horrible death
But Ryuunosuke did.
Aoi was hysterical in grief. So excuse her.
Kariya’s mind and body deteriorated that he’s not really sane. The novel points out he would have done things differently if his brain was actually functional (he would have figured out Kirei is behind this). The issue with the anime is that they don’t really give credit to his state (which is so grave he’s a lump of dead flesh mobilized by magic) and the voice actor sounds too calm too when he was hysterical and his voice isn’t longer like Kariya’s.
He didn’t attack Aoi in his mind. He couldn’t recognize who that woman was and why she was saying those things. He snaps back into reality when he notices it’s Aoi and releases her.
It makes sense.
It always disturbs me a little how the anime makes Kariya look too pretty in his state? He was compared to a victim of a nuclear reactor explosion in how bad he was in the novels. He was nearly done for during that battle in episode 5. Anime did not give credit to how he was covered with his own blood as he staggered out from the sewers and collapsed in agony…
I think the problems most people are having with this episode had to do mostly with screenplay. I haven’t read all of volumes 3 and 4 of the novel yet, but if it’s anything like how the previous novels changed my perception of the first half of the anime (and the second half, for that matter), I have quite a bit of faith that Urobuchi’s excellent expository description can save scenes like this.
On that note, I was still pretty jaw-dropped at the murder scene. Kariya did everything for Sakura and Aoi’s happiness, yet… slowly, but surely, everything he valued was taken away from him. It was bound to happen, but it’s like Kayneth and Lancer’s situation from earlier.
Lancer was accused of seducing Kayneth’s fiancee, which is like repeating the exact same thing Lancer was trying to change about his past. And then, when he felt like all he had left was the taste of a chivalrous battle, he couldn’t even finish that. The despair led him to curse the grail like he did.
And now, Kariya, whose only wish was to get revenge on Tokiomi and do something good for the two people he loved most in the world, is put into a situation where he has unintentionally “stolen” life force from Sakura and also “stolen” the life of his love’s husband, right in front of her eyes–at least, she saw it that way. So he felt guilty about Sakura and even though he wasn’t guilty of killing Tokiomi, Aoi blamed him for it… and that confusion and madness drove him to be “self-destructive,” which is common in Urobuchi tales about despair. If you have something you value and you’ve already lost enough of it that it seems pointless to keep the rest, why have that unstable incompleteness? Why not just get rid of it and not have to think about it ever again? It’s not exactly rational, but the stream of logic provides a temporary solace… until you realize what you’ve actually done.
God, I’m not sure I’ll ever like Kotomine, even if I finish the Heaven’s Feel route, where I hear he’s much more tolerable…
You won’t exactly like him. He’ll just be overshadowed by a greater threat and won’t be in control the way he is here or in FSN.
Well..one thing about this episode, it does seem to show that while Kotomine responded to Gil’s teasing with wicked words, he still seemed bored/disinterested. All the things he’s been trying all his life, including branching into all the different arms of Church service is out of the expectation of finding something that excites him and cures his boredom/lack of passion but while he seemed to be saying one thing to Archer, he seemed to look disappointed, as if the result of the confrontation between Kariya and Aoi didn’t excite him at all. He just said those things to keep Archer pleased and cooperative. Just my impression though. Hard to read those dead eyes of his. Maybe he was thinking about Zouken.
I think he is just unfamiliar with anything related to feelings, his comment about how the wine tasted sold me the idea that he genuinely likes the whole sadist business.
From the novels:
But if it was a development that betrayed none of his expectations – even if there were supposed to be no surprises – when he watched over it to the end, he felt a peculiar excitement.
If it was to be named, it might be called a sense of “freshness”.
The tragic scene just now was not a fantasy performed by actors. It was true that Kirei had guided the scene. But baring their innermost feelings, his fellow humans clashed against one another – the radiance of souls scattering the sparks was, without a doubt, authentic. While struggling to decide on an answer to Gilgamesh’s question, Kirei tasted the fragrance of the wine in his mouth again. Indeed, if it was surprise he was looking for, he was better off looking into this wine.
“…… Why, I drank this before, and yet…… I did not notice how profound the taste of this wine was.”
The King of Heroes smiled at Kirei who gazed at his wine glass, straight-faced.
“The taste of a wine is disguised in unexpected forms depending on the side dish served alongside it. Looks like you have begun to understand the meaning of the phrase, ‘broaden one’s view’.”
“……”
Not knowing the best way to reply to the rapturous Gilgamesh, Kirei put down his empty glass and stood up. He thought about the things he was supposed to attend to later and felt that he could not afford to keep relaxing. Aoi, lying on the chapel floor, would undoubtedly require treatment. And he also had to retrieve the fleeing Kariya for his next course of action.
Nevertheless, before leaving the room, Kirei once again glanced at the empty glass. He noticed that he felt reluctant to part with the wine, which he had finally finished.
Earnestly, he thought – if I can taste such flavor from this wine, I would love to drink it again.
Good God, this is pretty dark stuff. It’s not just the anime’s fault, I realize.
Hm.
Indeed. I read the first volume and was horribly disappointed at the crass violation of the “show, not tell” rule, as well as the clumsy translation. (from the type-moon wiki website)
This excerpt comes off much better, and more literary than straight-forward, expository. Different translation, perhaps?
The tragic scene was not over the top but it wasn’t Fate/Zero’s style. I expected it to be less subtle on it. Its emotional impact is more on dialogue and quiet action like how Kiritsugu’s flashback went. I guess they went for a different style. Nothing wrong with trying but I hope they realized it didn’t fit as well.
Really? I found this one of the best episodes so far. The actions scenes seemed great to me and I found everything rather thrilling and emotional. I somehow find Kariya’s fate way more tragic than the one of Kiritsugu so far because of those things that happen. What I also really liked was this intriguing presence Kotomine emitted during the second half of this episode. His character developement makes him one of the most interesting characters of the Fate universe I think.
The thing with Rider is that, while lots of people jumped on the “Rider is right and Saber is wrong” bandwagon due to his earlier impressive showing, the actual intention is to portray all of the kings as flawed in their vision.
In Rider’s case, his greatest flaw is that he lets his visions of glory blind him to logic. In the past he pursued a vision for Oceanus without supporting evidence, although he was also able to turn it into a strength last episode by accepting that it was a poor decision. Here, he is once again letting his vision of his glorious climatic showdown with Gilgamesh blind him to the obvious fact that he is in mortal danger and was very likely to lose and die if he did not go all out. In fact, his decision to charge with his chariot was also part of his desire to prove his way despite self-calculated 50% odds, as he believed that by literally trampling over Excalibur (representing Saber’s ideals) with his chariot, he can make a point. Even now he’s still thinking about how great it’d be if Saber becomes his soldier when it should be evident such a line of thinking is a pointless waste of time. In a way, he is just as over-idealistic as Saber. Perhaps even more so, as at least she isn’t trying to make friends in the battlefield.
All this makes Rider a more complex and likable character to me.
But Saber is wrong. That’s the entire premise of the Fate arc in FSN. This isn’t about her way of kingship. It’s about her wish and regrets.
Rider was right in this. He was derailed because he assumed wrongly what was the root of her problems. But he could never sit down and talk things with her again (and he didn’t have Shirou’s advantage of sharing dreams. We know that without them, he never understands her anyway). Furthermore, Rider in the novels, never said a way of kingship was wrong. It was the opposite. When they met he acknowledged their differences while she remained narrow-minded. The problem with Saber is that she was a joyless person who made him sad so he saw her title as a burden for her. He wanted to save her.
“Also, an observation that I made before this all happened: in the first season, Rider really was the stand-out character: his charisma and monologues were wonderful and it brought a lot of spark to the series. In the second season… this just doesn’t apply at all. He has been weakened and beaten pretty often, with in this episode him losing his chariot, in favor of characters as Kotomine Kirei and Kiritsugu.”
I think it has to do with the fact that Rider’s larger-than-life attitude is completely overshadowed by all the tragic and dark events taking place. There was a lot of build-up in the first 13 episodes of the series, so there was even time for Rider and Waver hijinks. Now, not so much… He truly is a likable fellow, though.
The story’s in full swing, the ending is rushing toward us, and there’s pretty much nothing but despair ahead.
Despair for some, rejoicing for others.
I enjoyed the bike scene, definitely worth waiting for a higher quality
dl