I personally love those series in which you can never be sure what to expect, which is exactly the case in Umineko. Even after being spoiled that Beatrice was going to die I still loved how this episode played out. Seriously, can this series get even more intriguing?
In this episode, we learn that Beatrice indeed existed once on the island, but died in an accident when she was with Rosa. That part is most likely true, and the killer used that story as a basis for his murders. At that point, Beatrice also says that there are only 18 people on the island. However, she says this inside a flashback. What does that mean? That there were eighteen people on the island when Beatrice died? Or does that go for the current time-line?
Also, this episode ends up killing off all of the servants of the Ushinomiya-family for the first wave of victims. On top of that, it’s also revealed that the Kumasawa is the one who taught Beatrice her magic. That does make me wonder though: how did she let herself get killed off so easily in the first and second arc? Was it because she was with others? Did that prevent her from showing her powers?
Anyway, my guess is that there is a number of people that the killer wants dead, and he ends up killing a few more in order to cause confusion and throw people off. We know from the previous arc that Battller, Jessica, George, Natsuhi, Maria, Genji, Rosa and Kinzou are not among these people, which leaves 10 possible sources of the killer’s hatred. This arc should also promise to be interesting, because we finally get to see a bit more from Battler’s parents and Krauss, who all died in the first round in the previous arcs.
But yeah, the part in which Beatrice goes on a killing spree for the first six sacrifices is probably another illusion created by Beatrice, in order to throw Battler off. But how long can she keep pulling these things before Battler suspects anything?
Rating: ** (Excellent)]]>
Umineko no Naku Koro ni – 13
I’m think it’s because Virgillia’s (that’s how she’s called alter on) power was dormant and sealed and up to now Beatrice didn’t use over-the top-magic enough to awaken her.
That’s how it was in VN at least.
Jaen, mentioning anything that hasn’t happened yet is considered spoiler.
But that did just happen at the end of the episode, didn’t it? It’s an assumption though, because I’ve seen just the preview.
If it didn’t then sorry, my bad.
I’m talking about the name.
Woah, I loved this episode… This 2nd arc of Umineko totally delivers
Completely unexpected after the huge mess of the first arc IMO, now I can see the same brilliance that made Higurashi so awesome
Hoping it keeps it up
i think it’s okay. the name doesn’t have any spoilerific things tied to it, aside from the fact that it hasn’t been announced in the anime yet. it has no other meanings.
*3rd arc of Umineko
Lucifer can gouge me any day.
Should Gouda consider himself very lucky because seven girls all piled on him, or should he consider himself very unlucky because seven girls all killed him? 😉
I’m guessing that Kumasawa is just letting someone kill her: death of the physical body didn’t seem to particular bother Beatrice when she died. Although I’m not sure if Kumasawa is just enjoying the game, trying to interfere, or an accidental participant.
Well, this complicates things by seemingly denying the existence of a 19th person but also makes them a lot more interesting. That seemed too convenient as a solution, in retrospect, but we’ll see what other surprises are in store for us viewers. That’s another reason why I like this show too.
The flashback to the hidden mansion was also very intriguing, but obviously the existence of a human Beatrice who died in the past -assuming we aren’t being tricked by some kind of illusion one more time- raises more questions than those it answers. Kinzo has always been a strange guy, but I’m even less inclined to think kindly of him after this.
Kumasawa being the former Beatrice, at least within the world of magic, seems to imply that the confrontation we saw during the OP sequence shouldn’t be too far away, whether it was yet another event in the past or something that hasn’t happened yet.
And just for the heck of it…those seven sisters are cute enough, admittedly, but I’d honestly prefer to *not* end up dead. 😉
@Jaen: That wasn’t a huge spoiler, thankfully, but nothing you’ve mentioned was spelled out during the episode so please try to be more prudent with those details next time.
“However, she says this inside a flashback. What does that mean? That there were eighteen people on the island when Beatrice died? Or does that go for the current time-line?”
She said “There are no more than 18 people on Rokkenjima”. And yeah, she’s talking about the current timeline (or else she wouldn’t have told Battler to believe in witches if he didn’t want to suspect any of the 18).
This arc looks better than the first one but still that red thing make me laugh. At least we know more about some chars.
When i read Umineko’s premises about the battle between magic and reason and being this setup so similar to Agatha Christie’s “10 Little Indians”, i presumed we had to solve a big riddle every arc, by the means of a reason based on supernatural concepts or logical detective style conjectures.
But what we got in the last 2 arcs, were just murders the same pemise being a locked room mystery.
But the explanations given in the first arc were absent and the in the second were so lame from both perspectives.
I loled so much at Battler muttering just “dunno but yet i don’t believe you” towerds what he’d refuse conceptually and not speak with. He looked so much Disney’s Goofy vs Witch Hazel without the witty humour that story had. (thx to Dogwalker from Animeclick.it for letting me know this)
I liked the premise about magic being like a gamble and having its own rules. The “magic” we saw in that arc left no space to logic conjectures but spoiled all the fun. Let’s hope the author would think of something more witty to show us next time.
My guess is that Beatrice’s teacher took the old servant form to keep an eye on Beatrice and prevent an event like this. She did a lousy job in the first two arcs though… Perhaps the rules of her magic are that she can’t show it around humans or something.
I used to have a little theory about Kumasawa – that she IS Beatrice. That she was Kinzo’s mistress, and lived in the mansion as a servant. But now that we know Beatrice died, that theory kind of breaks down.
Could it be that each arc has a different killer according to how history developed in that time line?
I love it how this series confuses the hell out of me :). Too bad I didn’t keep a list of the red text facts from the start…
One think I don’t understand is: What does Battler gain from winning this ‘game’ with Beatrice ?
Did I miss something?
@Grhasha In a similar vein, I wonder if the history before October 4 is the same for all arcs, or if they are similar but different. (Did Rosa meet Beatrice in the histories for the previous arcs? Did Shannon and Kanon meet Beatrice in the history for the second arc?)
@thestation Battler won’t be duped by Beatrice, who wants to take all the credit and hence hiding the truth of what really happened. Regardless of what is really the truth, that’s what he must be thinking.
what does beatrice gain if she wins?
Solaris, the thing about these arcs is that they build on each other, providing new clues with each arc. As I talked about in my comment on episode 12, this isn’t so much a story to follow, as a very extended riddle:
instead of a story to be taken literally, think of this as a puzzle or riddle to be solved. Things like “Meta-Battler” (the Battler who sits in that parlour with Beatrice and discusses things, the one I think you meant when you said Beatrice ressurected him) and the red text as fictional devices, written into the rules of the puzzle, in order to give structure to the game. In effect, those parts of the story might be considered the gameboard and rules, while the various scenarios taking place on the island are rounds of the game being played.
The object of the game is to find some human/logical means by which the murders could have taken place. And if possible, to prove it wasn’t any of the family members or servants.
If you take Umineko too literally, it’s pretty weak, but understood as a mind game, where none of the characters or plot devices should be viewed as real people or events, it is incredibly fun and clever.
So in the first arc we had the locked door riddles, in the second arc, we add some of the rules, limitations and clues which we can draw from the red text, and we also added the wolf and sheep riddles. Now in this arc, we have those elements again, but also, someone who appears to be Beatrice, died from falling off the cliff when rosa was a teen, and that there are only 18 people on the island. I imagine we will also see a new type of puzzle inserted on top of the locked room and wolf and sheep puzzles. Also, there is the overarching puzzle of the epitaph. To understand the riddle, we have to take each arc as a new layer in the game. Battler hasn’t given a good explanation yet because the game is just getting started. Again, if we try to take this as a story, like an agatha christie novel, it all seems pretty silly. Similarly, if we take it in bits and pieces, it all seems rather simplistic. But if we look at it as one long mind-teaser, it is quite complex. Yes, the locked door mystery will probably remain a PART of the riddle, but each arc introduces new elements to the puzzle, such as the wolf and sheep elements last arc. Also, we have to keep in mind that what we see in each arc is only what Beatrice wants us to see and isn’t neccessarily real unless she states it in red text, which is why the red text is an important component of the games framework. Again, if we took this as a story, the red text idea seems intrusive, but it is supposed to be because this really isnt being told as a story.
#9 Shounen A:
What can I say? Gohda is just a chick magnet.
Sadly, he’s also vulnerable to stab wounds.
Anyway, another good episode! A lot of my favorite bits are in the third and fourth arcs, so I’m glad that they finally seem to be getting their act together.
Oh, psgels: It would make things easier if the red meant “There were eighteen people back then”, but it seems like the numbers don’t add up. Kinzo, his wife who’s still alive back then, Rosa, Eva, Rudolf, Krauss, and five servants and also Beatrice I guess? That makes 12 people. Although maybe they had more servants in the past.
psgels: I don’t think the numbers add up for there being 18 people when Rosa met Beatrice on the island. Kinzo, his wife, Rosa, Eva, Krauss, Rudolf, Beatrice, Genji, and some number of other servants. Assuming it’s five servants including Genji, that only comes out to twelve people.
@Juni:
The red text doesn’t state that there are exactly 18 people, but not more than 18, which means there may be fewer people.
@ Shounen A :
I think its a common consensus that everything that happened before the 2 fateful days of october 4th and 5th are constant. Shannon and Kanon’s confrontation with Beatrice occured in all games and this includes Beatrice’s death.
Hmm, did anyone else suspect that what Ronove said shouldn’t be taken as truth? After all, it’s not explicitly stated that the red text agreement extends to him. Could he be providing red herrings to chase?
PL, ok that’s a layered story just higurashi stile. I’ve got no problem with that. The problem are the riddles who are so stupid and are all left irresolved, sheep and wolves one included. Oh well, if you just call out allmighty magic all is explained.
Just take a look at the rules system: they stated magic have their own rules that resemble a gambit but neverthless magic is always almighty. Reasoning is bound with red mandatory rules and can’t develop freely. The amusing thing is she who makes the rules has a part in the contest. It reminds me of quarreling children where they make their own rules during games to win. That is ludicrous.
Look at higurashi. That was a very well written story. You could make your own guess at the end of every arc because quite a few pieces were explained. So every story made sense at the end of their arcs. What makes sense in Umineko? The witch has the power to bend the rules whenever she wants. Everything is explained when it happens and there’sno room for speculations. Let me say this story is just so poorly written. It doesn’t absolutely compare with Higurashi’s awesomeness.
This is not the kind of game which two players played along the rules made by a third person, but the game between the one who gives riddles and the one tries to solve it. Of course the first will have advantages against the latter, noone said the game has to be fair.
And it’s too soon now to compare Umineko with Higurashi. Just two arcs finished, and I don’t think Higurashi made any sense at the end of Watanagashi-hen.
4saken, same author for both Higurashi and Umineko. Every arc made its own sense at the end of Higurashi. Even the question arcs.
Umineko is great for a lot of people because it doesn’t make sense when you start to look at things, but start to make more senses when you think in a different way. It take the phrase “think outside of the box” to another level.
And Umineko and Higurashi use different style of writing (and premise). So you can’t really compare them. Higurashi use more short story style of writing but Umineko build up from one arc to further arcs. You have to watch all the question arcs first or else you won’t have all clues to solve the mystery.
Spoiler*****************************************************************************************Everyone is saying Beatrice died, but I was thinking, what it actually said in red is “That is dead” pointing at the corpse. So, the corpse is not neccessrily the same beatrice…there could be twin sisters or any number of other conclusions to draw from that.
I thought the logical conclusion was that Beatrice was a real person who became a witch upon her death. Or she was a witch who was sealed into or reborn as a human and was ressurected upon the human’s death.
Either way, they were trying to basically rule out Beatrice as a person on the island during the present day (aka when the murders happen).
Just wondering if witches were considered people and if that is the reason of the “no more than 18 people are in the island”. And why Battler says the culprit/s must be one of the 18 people he knows(he includes himself in the count or is he also including Beato?).
Diedrupo, of course that is what Beatrice wants Battler to think, but admitting that is the same as losing. So if we want an interpretation that doesnt involve magic then either that body isnt really beatrice, or beatrice is actually dead…but my point is that the red text only said “that is dead” and she indicated the body, but “that” doesnt neccesarily have to be Beatrice…
I’m liking Umineko more with this arc. Definitely makes you think about various possibilities. That demon girl got owned by furniture. =D
@solaris:
In Higurashi, the truth was hidden by layers of folclore and preconceived ideas. The story was unraveled in a way that you didn’t have a clue about the reason behind the arcs.
In Umineko, the truth is hidden by layers of magic illusion and fantasy. As the readers already know the point in the arc system, they already get an explanation to the arc system fast.
Your problem is that you’re taking by granted that “everything is explained when it happens”, but that’s not what’s happening at all. Your point as a reader/viewer is to find a human solution to all of this. Magic was never supposed to make sense, is full of holes to you to speculate what really is happening. As you do that, and the story advances, magic will begin to die and you will get to see if you were right.
Red never was some rule binding you, red allows you to speculate.
Umineko is better storywise than Higurashi, because the real point is to the reader to inmerse in the story (the anime kinda fails a bit in this). Higurashi’s best point was the emotion portayed (also killed by the anime).
@ ebisu: If there are no more than 18 people on the island, and Battler doesn’t want to suspect any of the 18, he is forced to accept Beato’s presence as a witch. No, she does not count as one of the 18, I believe. If you were to count all the witches and demons the total number would by far exceed 18 (remember the seven sisters of purgatory, Ronove and those goat-heads).
What Beato’s trying to do is make battler accept her as a witch. What Battler is trying to do is deny her existence while still claiming that all his relatives as well as the servants are innocent. When referring to the 18 people, Battler counts himself but not Beato.
“This Rokkenjima” refers to Beatrice’s game board. The game board doesn’t start until Oct 4th, 1986. The no more than 18 people line pertains to the game board.
But it can also refer to only this game board. Meaning the 1st and 2nd might have had more. That’s up to debate though.
@ Solaris: “Oh well, if you just call out allmighty magic all is explained. Just take a look at the rules system: they stated magic have their own rules that resemble a gambit but neverthless magic is always almighty.”
In this universe, not really. Over time you’ll find out that “magic” in Umineko is rather ordinary. What magic *is* however, is an easy way out. Think of all the flashy magic dangling in front of you as something shiny used to distract your attention.
The thing is with Umineko you’re supposed to treat the work as one long narrative. As the story unfolds, you get to learn what “magic” can and cannot do. I hope the anime will be able to convey that well, given recent events mean it’s going to be very soon.
I’ll watch it to the end. I hope it will make sense by then.